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Old 06-18-2012, 08:51 AM   #1
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Frame rust sanity check

Hi Everybody!

Wish this was a more positive post however I am looking for feedback on a dilema with my Tacoma.

Let me start by saying that I have owned a Toyota truck since 1978 and have beenevangilistic about the brand and now my Wife, Mom, Brother and two Sisters allown Toyotas.

I travel quite a bit for work and my 2001 Tacoma only has 67K on the odometer asof today. It was at the dealer for the 50K service in 2009 and three times since to fix a nagging A/C problem.

Last month I noticed some rust developing along the top of the windshield so Icalled my dealer here in Minnesota who directed me to the dealer network collision center Luther Collision who handles all of their body work. They toldme the entire roof needed to be cut off and it would cost roughly 4K to fix.

This is not the bad part! After some research I discovered the Service Campaign regarding the frame rust an my truck was a candidate. Not having received any notices by mail I called the dealer only to find out they had the wrong address for me. I then called Toyota and was assigned a case number / worker and when I asked her the address they had on file for me she provided the same incorrect address that the dealer had.

Turns out my frame is rusted to the point of being too dangerous to sell and the Service Campaign ended in December 2012. The Toyota case worker then said thatshe verified that they had somehow mailed the notices to the correct address and that the case was closed and I had no valid claim and was left with the defective frame.

Att his point I called both the dealer and Toyota case worker back and they admitted having the wrong address on file for me while I recorded the conversation with an iPhone recording appplication.

So where do I go from here? I love the truck however did need a bigger engine to tow with and it is at the time interval I usually trade my trucks but now I think it is worth next to nothing.

Will a lawyer help? Is there another Toyota contact that would be worth contacting? Should I appeal to the dealer again?

Toyota should be ashamed for treating such a long term loyal customer with such disgrace.

Any feedback from the group or mediators would be very much appreciated!

Thanks,

Bill Bartolotto
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:10 PM   #2
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How could they verify they sent it to the correct address?
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:19 PM   #3
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When your truck was at the dealer for the 50K service and for the AC problem, did the invoices have your correct address on there?
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:29 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98tacoma27 View Post
How could they verify they sent it to the correct address?

Yeah ^^^ ditto
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:30 PM   #5
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Recalls

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbartolotto View Post
Hi Everybody!

Wish this was a more positive post however I am looking for feedback on a dilema with my Tacoma.

Let me start by saying that I have owned a Toyota truck since 1978 and have beenevangilistic about the brand and now my Wife, Mom, Brother and two Sisters allown Toyotas.

I travel quite a bit for work and my 2001 Tacoma only has 67K on the odometer asof today. It was at the dealer for the 50K service in 2009 and three times since to fix a nagging A/C problem.

Last month I noticed some rust developing along the top of the windshield so Icalled my dealer here in Minnesota who directed me to the dealer network collision center Luther Collision who handles all of their body work. They toldme the entire roof needed to be cut off and it would cost roughly 4K to fix.

This is not the bad part! After some research I discovered the Service Campaign regarding the frame rust an my truck was a candidate. Not having received any notices by mail I called the dealer only to find out they had the wrong address for me. I then called Toyota and was assigned a case number / worker and when I asked her the address they had on file for me she provided the same incorrect address that the dealer had.

Turns out my frame is rusted to the point of being too dangerous to sell and the Service Campaign ended in December 2012. The Toyota case worker then said thatshe verified that they had somehow mailed the notices to the correct address and that the case was closed and I had no valid claim and was left with the defective frame.

Att his point I called both the dealer and Toyota case worker back and they admitted having the wrong address on file for me while I recorded the conversation with an iPhone recording appplication.

So where do I go from here? I love the truck however did need a bigger engine to tow with and it is at the time interval I usually trade my trucks but now I think it is worth next to nothing.

Will a lawyer help? Is there another Toyota contact that would be worth contacting? Should I appeal to the dealer again?

Toyota should be ashamed for treating such a long term loyal customer with such disgrace.

Any feedback from the group or mediators would be very much appreciated!

Thanks,

Bill Bartolotto
So here's my thought: in the industry I work in, a recall can be closed but generally with the caveat that untreated items received after closure will have the appropriate fixes/corrective actions applied. The governments around the world have an expectation that an item returned for any reason where a recall has been issued will be dealt with. Essentially, if there is a safety risk, the work will be done.

So it appears that you may have a growing safety issue. I would work with the Corporate folks (being very nice) to get the new frame you would have gotten had you done the expected recall servicing. As I was told, if rust appears anywhere on my 2004s frame before Dec 2018, I get the new frame. The money needed to support a recall of this magnitude has been allocated by the finance folks at Toyota. They estimate how many folks will inevitably get a new frame even after the containment activity they performed (undercoating the frame). Of course, they try to hang onto the money as any of us would. However, I think that you could be successful in negotiating the fix, even if it might be some kind of split (but hold out for the full fix or have them fix the frame while you cover the windshield rust).

When personal safety is in play or the safety of others around you, the manufacturer should be concerned. Understandably, things can't go on forever, but then again, things aren't always black-and-white with hard stops and deadlines. If that doesn't work for you, maybe a letter from an attorney friend will raise the BP of a corporate associate and cause them to fix your truck.

Good luck!!
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:35 PM   #6
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Verification

Quote:
Originally Posted by babytruck View Post
Yeah ^^^ ditto
For recalls/field actions, registered mail is normally used. They probably have objective evidence the that first, second and final notices were sent. While this somewhat appeases the government agencies, it does not negate obligation in the governments eyes. As this is a voluntary recall, things might be stickier to deal with after the fact, but persistance can pay off.
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:44 PM   #7
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The frame buyback was never a recall.
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Old 06-19-2012, 12:31 PM   #8
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Thanks so much for the replies.

Yes the address on the invoices for the 50K service and the AC problems are incorrect. The dealer does not dispute having an incorrect address and I do have a recording of the Toyota case worker stating that they had an incorrect address as well.

When I talked to Nicole (case worker) I asked if I could get some form of validation that the notices were sent to the correct addresses. She told me that management verified that they were sent to the correct address and that they considered the case closed and there was nothing she could do from there.

So Kevin, I think I will take your advice and go thru the process of retaining an attorney. I'm not sure how to go about that so it will probably just start with a Google.
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Old 06-19-2012, 01:01 PM   #9
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The campaign notice would have been sent to whatever address Toyota had on file. Simple as that.

The address on the repair invoices came from somewhere (usually provided on first service visit or from the truck's bill of sale). If you made no effort to give the dealer your correct address in the last three years, there's no way for the dealer and Toyota corporate to know.

Unless you already have a lawyer on retainer, legal fees may exceed the cost of a frame replacement. (The vehicle buybacks were for '95-'00 trucks.)
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:06 PM   #10
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Recalls

Before buying my 2004, I had the vehicle checked out by the local Toyota dealership. Two announced recalls: balljoints and frame. They informed me that since the frame was serviced as part of the recall, it was warranteed until Dec 2018. I was under the impression that this recall applied for 2001 vintage vehicles as well, but unverified by me. There are many sites that list what these are for any year of manufacture and configuration, but I'm sure most reading this know that.

While manufacturers may not have your latest address, most have mailforwarding stamped on Notices so at least a certain percentage more will be informed. Manufacturers are generally required to use alternate means to locate consignees and have records to substantiate efforts. Inevitably, there are a certain percentage of folks that won't get the message (my experience, this ranges from 3-17%, but I don't deal at a consumer level). And for my industry, closed doesn't mean that a manufacturer's obligation has ended.

The case worker's comments on management verification is probably in the version of returned registered mail tracking. They can demonstrate that they made an attempt to contact you through mail, but I wonder if they could demonstrate the 'alternate' means (provided this is a recall). Latest address for service work done perhaps, reaching you by phone, or finding you through the Internet. I'm not sure what their protocols are, but it might be worth asking them a question or two.

Let the community here know how this shakes out for you. I'm sure that you aren't alone in the matter.
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:46 PM   #11
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This was a service campaign, not a recall. The frame warranty was extended to 15 years (which for a 2001 truck would end around 2016), but owners had to get the frame inspected and rustproofed before a certain date - the deadline Bbartolotto apparently missed.

@Bbartolotto: Wish you luck. Perhaps it may be possible to negotiate a partial reimbursement (say 50%) on the frame replacement cost.
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:14 PM   #12
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Service Campaign

I suppose some Marketing exec felt better about calling this a Service Event as opposed to a Recall. I can say that my local Toyota service manager mentioned both of my service items as 'recalls'. Softer on the company image and may limit the total warranty outlay I suppose.

Oh well...word to the wise...keep your ear to the wind and update your address for all high dollar items (cars, refrigerators, recreational vehicles, furnaces, etc) with the manufacturer of record. Do it while the cost of replacement/investment is too high to bear.
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:21 PM   #13
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Only thing I would suggest is an attorney , one person consent voice recording is iffy at best for evidence. I don't think anyone here is going to be much use unless they have dealt with this in your state. I sucks though sorry to hear this.

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Old 06-20-2012, 07:03 AM   #14
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Thanks again for the very informative replies! It has been very helpful.

I'm starting to feel like this was my fault for not being more dilligent with the maintenance of the vehicle. Toyota and their dealerships were clandestine with this cheesy "Service Campaign" for something as critical as the frame rust. And I was one of the targeted who would not respond to the bare minimum messaging.

The fact that the vehicle had been to the dealer four times during the date affectivity of the campaign (including an extensive and expensive 50K service!) and they would not bring this to my attention is just not right especially since I bought my last three trucks from them.

I intend to have a face to face with the service manager and it won't be pretty. I'm sure they anticipate that type of thing happening when they are encouraged to not bring a "Service Campaign" to the owners attention.

So now the vehicle has 67K on it and I hope to drive it until I has 267K since I cannot sell or trade it. My assumption is that the frame must be close to structurally sound otherwise this would be classified as a recall and Toyota could be liable even though they sent out a few letters and I was denied service.

And I am back to square one on fixing the rust above the windshield before it starts to leeak. Wow.

I'll keep the boeard updated.
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:19 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbartolotto View Post
... Not having received any notices by mail I called the dealer only to find out they had the wrong address for me. I then called Toyota and was assigned a case number / worker and when I asked her the address they had on file for me she provided the same incorrect address that the dealer had
Out of curiosity, was that Toyota's CEC (Customer Experience Center 800-331-4331) that you called and were assigned a case number?
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:00 AM   #16
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I have a 1999 Taco. I have never taken it in to the dealer for anything and was never aware of any issues. I have noticed a little rust on the frame but nothing major. What do I need to know?
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Old 06-20-2012, 09:45 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbartolotto View Post
The fact that the vehicle had been to the dealer four times during the date affectivity of the campaign (including an extensive and expensive 50K service!) and they would not bring this to my attention is just not right especially since I bought my last three trucks from them.
Yes, this is about your only leverage when negotiating with the dealer and Toyota corporate. Use it to the best of your ability.

Quote:
So now the vehicle has 67K on it and I hope to drive it until I has 267K since I cannot sell or trade it. My assumption is that the frame must be close to structurally sound otherwise this would be classified as a recall and Toyota could be liable even though they sent out a few letters and I was denied service.
Did the frame fail the inspection at the dealer? If it failed the inspection, then the truck is not safe to drive.

Rust is progressive, and nothing lasts forever. If a critical part rusted very quickly, say within 5 years, it surely would be covered by a recall. e.g. the spare tire cable recall on Siennas. A critical part rusting 11 years after sale isn't so certain. A lot of other critical parts could wear out or rust after 11 years and Toyota wouldn't be liable (balljoints, exhaust pipe, leaf springs...).
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:25 AM   #18
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Ok. Here is my take on this issue as I am getting tired of people just making statements that are completely one sided on both sides of the frame issue.

1) Both you and Toyota are at fault here (read all of this before everyone jumps to conclusions).
2) You should have corrected your address with Toyota (there is a website specifically dedicated to keeping your records with Toyota up to date and so they can contact you in the event of recall, etc...http://www.toyota.com/help/contactus.html)
3) Having said this, the dealership SHOULD have notified you when you had it in for servicing. It says that you were eligible for the undercoating right in their records when they pull your vin number up. Having not done so is inexcusable. However, whether that makes them liable for your predicament is a legal question, especially given the service advisory versus recall status of the frame.
4) Going to the dealer and Toyota corporate to nicely and professional make your argument that you should have been notified at least at the dealership may work but you are fighting an uphill battle.
5) Another question to ask if how hard to you want to fight this. Do you want to take the stand for every other person in your situation and those people who buy the trucks without knowing because you feel it is Toyota's responsibility to buy back or replace the frames because they know the metal is defective? Toyota is placing their reputation on the line with a lot of people for the way they are handling the frame problem from 2001-2004 (1995-2000 they just bought it back within 15 years from the original sale date). It arguably becomes a safety issue to people with the trucks and other motorists.

For what it is worth, I lost my 2000 to the buyback for frame rust and my 2004 was undercoated and on its way to a new frame (undercoating over 50% gone already and frame is completely rusted so just waiting on the first penetration and then new frame coming my way).

good luck and keep us updated. You are not the first nor the last who will deal with this.
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Old 06-20-2012, 03:40 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tashier View Post
I have a 1999 Taco. I have never taken it in to the dealer for anything and was never aware of any issues. I have noticed a little rust on the frame but nothing major. What do I need to know?
As I understand it, trucks registered in Oregon did not meet the requirements. They only applied to a very specific list of states where roads were salted during the winter.
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Old 06-20-2012, 04:21 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digiratus View Post
As I understand it, trucks registered in Oregon did not meet the requirements. They only applied to a very specific list of states where roads were salted during the winter.
OK, good. Rather not have the problem and need repairs, then have the problem and get repairs. My frame seems to be in pretty good shape actually. And The truck had 100,000 miles from California before Oregon. Both good states for good clean roads.
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