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Old 08-30-2013, 09:24 AM   #41
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unless you grab another wastegate, they dont have springs for sale that could install to adjust the psi?
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:12 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdawg View Post
Yea you could do that i guess. But more money out of your pocket..Might as well do it right the first time.
I mean couldn't you just buy a spring to make it a 4 or 5 psi wastegate? it'd be like 15 bucks...
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:29 PM   #44
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Im not sure what kinda of wastegate comes with the kit..in theory..yes..but if its a real cheap one...no.

Either way..you'd be pushing the stock ECU a lot by running even 4 psi with no additional fuel.

Now..before you say "well the TRD SC works at 6-8psi"..you have to remember psi is a relative term.

The turbo that comes with this kit has a 62mm inducer. Thats a decent sized turbo. so at 8 psi its moving X amount of air. But lets say a 70mm turbo was put on. 8 psi out of that is going to be a lot more air moving from that turbo as its a bigger wheel.

In other words, the amount of air the turbo moves varies by size(duh) but psi does not truly reflect how much air is moving.

Id be willing to guess this turbo moves more air then the TRD sc..but i don't know for sure. i am no sure what the TRD sc moves for air in terms of efficiency.


either way..i wouldn't run a turbo with out extra fuel and management.

But go for it..i think you would cause problems personally.
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:40 PM   #45
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well this is just hypothetical if i were to get this kit , but running lower psi if it is at least a decent external wastegate capable of having the spring replaced with some larger injectors could solve the problem. but really i guess you dont know until you try haha!
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:00 PM   #47
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so thats why your using that turbo port fueler, just forgo the Stock ECU dealing with fuel under boost? then the MAP ECU 3 adjusts the MAF sensor signal to the stock ECU so it doesnt flip shit? sorry im not a turbo guy if you cant already tell!
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:03 PM   #48
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The turbo port fuel rail is cool for that reason yes.

It least the whole stock part of the truck alone and it functions as normal.

Then when boost kicks in the ECU3 sense's boost and applies the extra fuel needed and it gets deleviered through the turbo port rail. At the same time the ECU3 sends signals to the stock ECU that everything is normal. so it runs like normal WOT or however hard your accelerating by replacing the MAF singal.

Works well im told and you can get a great tune that way. But its not as in depth as a full stand alone like the MS3 of course. But it still will work well.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:09 PM   #49
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are there any other ECU that could work that cost less than 7 hundy?
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:13 PM   #50
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Im not sure. The MAFT Pro might which is what i had for my supra.

As long as it can send the correct signal to the stock ECU it could work. I believe its usually a 5v wire. But im not totally familiar with our ECUs so id have to look that up.

But it really depends on your setup. There will be more options available to use if you jsut put in bigger injectors at the stock location. The MAP EC3 controls up to 6 additional injectors, 12 total, making it i think the best and only choice for the turbo fuel rail.

But there should be lots of options for just controlling the 6 original injectors. but will be much more involved for tuning.
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Old 08-30-2013, 04:45 PM   #53
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As blackdawg pointed out, running 8 psi of TRD S/C air is not the same as 8 psi of intercooled turbo air. The TRD S/C guys not running management have been lucky for IMO a combination of reasons. The ping from the less dense TRD S/C air is not as dramatic/powerful as the cooler denser charge of the same relative psi rating of turbo air and b) the 5vz is tuff plain and simple- plenty of guys running the TRD S/C not seeing the power level they could if they ran the engine more optimally.

On so many forums of so many other cars, no way in hell would a non-fuel managed forced induction system have so little "I blew up my motor" threads as the 5vz TRD setup. 5vz guys tune via audible ping, so many other setups would ruin the motor when you get to that point lol.

I don't know the spool on this kit yet, so its hard to tell if this kit + Toyota ECU would play nice with piggyback units that have not played nice with the TRD S/C setup. The OE ECU seems to LOVE staying in closed loop more so than other ECUs I have tuned. This trait is what gave Gadget/URD such dominance and success in this demographic with their piggies that scew the o2 signal.

IMO odds are just like with the TRD S/C, there will be partial throttle closed loop boost with this kit, and therefore your typical AFC, SAFCII, Emanage blue, Emanage Ultimate will not cut it with this kit. You are looking at piggies that can scew the o2 signal. I believe there are variants of the MAP ECU that can do this, the AEM FIC, and URD Split Second products as far as piggies go. Its that, or ditch working with the OE ECU at all and go standalone.

This will be a big case of "you get what you pay for". Go very cheap and you will get a system that can tune open loop only, and only fuel, not timing, and will be hard to tune at that (MAF based)= power spikes, dips, damage, carbon build up etc. Go semi cheap and you may get o2 scewing, but its not tuning friendly/intuitive (using two or three products at once, having to reset the OE ECU after each tune change etc), and is still MAF based (have to stay small with the primary injectors, PITA larger injector tuning).

Do it right and you have an easy to tune, easy to data log, easy to keep consistent setup that can support power to the 5vz's OE internal's limit.

I've been in the game sometime. Some platforms or situations do have the effective "cheap" band-aid fix, but more often than not, the phrase "cheap, fast, reliable--- pick two" is the law of the land.

I'm still blown away at the price of the hardware. When I got into cars a long time ago, non-ems turbo kits costed a looooot more.

I was going to pick up the kit today but got tied up, so maybe a week or two from now. Again, if any SoCal members want to check it out, just hit me up.
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:19 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdawg View Post
really? A MKIII supra and the 7mgte?? cool man! i loved it..and miss it..can't wait for another..someday.
Id take a MKIV but yes, MKIII would be the car I got if I won the lottery.

Curious, why can the URD fuel upgrade kit work again?

http://urdusa.com/Fuel-Upgrades-URD-...duct_info.html

How come the calibration unit wont work with the Turbo?
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:35 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSportD View Post
As blackdawg pointed out, running 8 psi of TRD S/C air is not the same as 8 psi of intercooled turbo air. The TRD S/C guys not running management have been lucky for IMO a combination of reasons. The ping from the less dense TRD S/C air is not as dramatic/powerful as the cooler denser charge of the same relative psi rating of turbo air and b) the 5vz is tuff plain and simple- plenty of guys running the TRD S/C not seeing the power level they could if they ran the engine more optimally.

On so many forums of so many other cars, no way in hell would a non-fuel managed forced induction system have so little "I blew up my motor" threads as the 5vz TRD setup. 5vz guys tune via audible ping, so many other setups would ruin the motor when you get to that point lol.

I don't know the spool on this kit yet, so its hard to tell if this kit + Toyota ECU would play nice with piggyback units that have not played nice with the TRD S/C setup. The OE ECU seems to LOVE staying in closed loop more so than other ECUs I have tuned. This trait is what gave Gadget/URD such dominance and success in this demographic with their piggies that scew the o2 signal.

IMO odds are just like with the TRD S/C, there will be partial throttle closed loop boost with this kit, and therefore your typical AFC, SAFCII, Emanage blue, Emanage Ultimate will not cut it with this kit. You are looking at piggies that can scew the o2 signal. I believe there are variants of the MAP ECU that can do this, the AEM FIC, and URD Split Second products as far as piggies go. Its that, or ditch working with the OE ECU at all and go standalone.

This will be a big case of "you get what you pay for". Go very cheap and you will get a system that can tune open loop only, and only fuel, not timing, and will be hard to tune at that (MAF based)= power spikes, dips, damage, carbon build up etc. Go semi cheap and you may get o2 scewing, but its not tuning friendly/intuitive (using two or three products at once, having to reset the OE ECU after each tune change etc), and is still MAF based (have to stay small with the primary injectors, PITA larger injector tuning).

Do it right and you have an easy to tune, easy to data log, easy to keep consistent setup that can support power to the 5vz's OE internal's limit.

I've been in the game sometime. Some platforms or situations do have the effective "cheap" band-aid fix, but more often than not, the phrase "cheap, fast, reliable--- pick two" is the law of the land.

I'm still blown away at the price of the hardware. When I got into cars a long time ago, non-ems turbo kits costed a looooot more.

I was going to pick up the kit today but got tied up, so maybe a week or two from now. Again, if any SoCal members want to check it out, just hit me up.
Well said.

I can't wait to see your results.

And as before. Would love to part take in helping out or testing or whatever when your done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StAndrew View Post
Id take a MKIV but yes, MKIII would be the car I got if I won the lottery.

Curious, why can the URD fuel upgrade kit work again?

http://urdusa.com/Fuel-Upgrades-URD-...duct_info.html

How come the calibration unit wont work with the Turbo?

Nice!

Id love 2 MKIIIs. An 87 with a built 7mgte and a 91 with a 2jz swap.

the URD could work. But its not ideal as its mapped for the SC. The Turbo will have a totally different boost map and power map.
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:46 PM   #56
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Just listening. Interesting stuff.
You mentioned that you may have less air volume for a given psi if you have a larger turbo, or TB? Don't you measure your boost off the intake? If so, for the same temp, lbs for lbs should be the same volume. Or do you measure psi elsewhere?
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:50 PM   #57
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Yea its measured off the intake if your running MAP sensors.

But preassure is preassure yes. But FLOW is different. The larger Incuder fans are going to move MUCH more air then a very small turbo. A small turbo will have to spin faster to move the same ammount of air. Its usually why smaller turbo setup run in the 20-30 psi range. Where as large turbo setups run in th 10-18 psi. More air is move thus more power from a lower pressure. Not that your can't run a high preassure from a big turbo..just most people can't afford the correct mods to support that much air getting pumped through a motor.
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Old 08-30-2013, 08:14 PM   #58
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Quote:
Don't you measure your boost off the intake? If so, for the same temp, lbs for lbs should be the same volume
Right, but in no way does the S/C make near as "cold" boost as an efficient turbo + intercooler. Add to that what Blackdawg is saying, there are more variables such as the exhaust restriction of OE exhaust, a small exhaust housing on the turbo, large etc.

I've seen centrifugal S/C kits get a drop in PSI when an upgraded exhaust was installed. That put out a fixed rate of flow, and with the exhaust scavenging out better, the increased flow reduced perceived backpressure/resistance of the boosted air into the engine, so the boost readings bumped down about 1-2psi. A bunch of guys got mad because they equivocate boost=power. At a reduced boost pressure, they were making more power. 30psi from a small turbo is causing an exhaust restriction, 30psi from a much larger turbo, not so much, plus throw in the efficiency mapping of the turbo for the engine/psi/power...

Quote:
Curious, why can the URD fuel upgrade kit work again?
It would work up to what, about 300hp give or take (injector limitation), but there is a reason the 7th injector became a lot more popular. Tuning for larger injectors via the MAF signal, with a piggyback that requires that you reset the power every time you make a change to the tune... enjoy.
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Old 08-31-2013, 11:02 PM   #60
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Does anyone know if the intercooler sold by Safari could work with this kit and a Safari Snorkel? I think the intercooler is meant for a turbo-diesel.... (sorry I don't know very much about intercooling systems.)

http://www.safarisnorkel.com/interco...er_product.htm
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