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Considering trimming fenders instead of lift for my next project...

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Old 03-22-2014, 09:39 AM   #1
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Considering trimming fenders instead of lift for my next project...

Hi guys,

I'm in planning for my next truck project. I decided to go for a 10k$ budget without considering tires/wheels/bumpers. It will be my daily driver so I need everything working flawlessly. So no too much jackass fab. I don't rock crawl or mud that much. Just use the truck to work on my wood land.

The truck will be a 01-04 quad cab that I will have to convert to manual transmission, or manual and 4WD if I end buying a prerunner. Thats is not really a problem.


I first wanted to convert it to coiled SAS, but lets be honest, it's seems that it is expensive and will explode my budget in no time. Then leaf SAS a little less expensive but that gives less road confort. (I do many highway miles on road with the truck).

Second setup I explored for one more time, is the long control arm possibility, then trowed that idea away again for budget concern.and also it gives a front track too wide for what I do.

Currently I have a truck with 3" bilstein/OME front lift, and I don't want to do the same set-up. Blows cv boosts all the time and I want my suspension to cycle in both direction up and down. Sick tired of the full drop suspension set-up. I had too much truck set-up like that.


I like the idea of big tires no lift. (Biggest tires I could ever want will be 35"). I was wondering if I could trim lots of sheetmetal and fit theses under. I'm confortable with 1" body lift but no more than that. I will have to be able to cycle the suspension bump to bump up and down and steering lock to lock.

I'd like to keep softer coils up front and and better articulation. I searched a little bit on various forums, but it often ends that people had quit a lot of suspension mods anyways.

It's the first time I explore that possibility and help and advises would be appreciated.

Thanks!
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:03 AM   #2
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There's this common misconception that a lift doesn't increase clearance - and that only tire size does that.

This is untrue. A suspension lift, even on exact same tires, increases approach angle, departure angle (especially limiting on our tacomas) and breakover angle (especially limiting on double cabs.) A tire-size-only lift won't give you that much improvement in these areas.

You seem a bit ambivalent about how much work you're willing to do. A swap from automatic to manual is OK, or a swap from pre-runner to 4x4 - and yet you're unhappy that you're changing CV boots too often??

If the trouble is that the CVs blow unexpectedly and take your truck out of comission - you could put them on a fixed maintenance interval like any other maintenance job, where you replace them at regular intervals (say 30,000 miles, 45,000 miles - whatever) before they actually blow.

If you want more droop (I can sympathize with the discomfort of lack of droop over expansion joints on the highway) consider a midtravel setup where you get just a bit more droop by addition of extended length coilovers and uniball coilovers. To protect the CVS on a first gen, you could consider throwing a front diff drop in there.

Two cents, adjusted for inflation.
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:04 AM   #3
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Different truck and also MUCH MUCH more than I want to do, but that guys inspired me very much with that setup. Awsome set-up that makes me want to think differently.













Notice how straight are the control arms angle to the ground.


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Old 03-22-2014, 10:09 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick4x4 View Post
Different truck and also MUCH MUCH more than I want to do, but that guys inspired me very much with that setup. Awsome set-up that makes me want to think differently.


That is cool - no doubt.

I still bet he can no longer turn that thing lock-to-lock though.

EDIT - also, that size tires on a first-gen - it's gotta be really easy for that thing to break CVs out on the trail.
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:57 AM   #5
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That guy is running 42" w/3" bl. As I said, it just to tell you what inspired me because I know my set-up won't be close ot that.

I will keep my front open diff, that should avoid breakage.

Also, to answer your question. There is no really mather how much work I will hve to do in order to build my new truck because I'll set it off the road for all the time needed. Therefore, once done, I will sell my other truck and use the new one as a DD.

It's true blowing cv boosts is not that much a big deal as it's don't stop the truck from moving. It's quite time consoming also and you don't expect it to be a routine maintenance.

Both of them are blown on my truck currently. As long they won't make weird sounds they will stay like that. I will replace them just before selling the just.
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:01 AM   #6
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He means break the cv shaft. Not the boot.
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:58 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoonman View Post
He means break the cv shaft. Not the boot.

Yeah I understand that, I was just answering to a previous comment he posted.

That why I said I would keep the front diff open, no way I could fit a locker in it and expect it to hold w/35".

If 35" are too big in order to make a effective set-up, I will consider 34 or 33" tire size. I could live with it.

I'm planning to run 4.30 gear ratio so I have to consider it also because I want to have an efficient highway set-up.
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Old 03-22-2014, 03:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick4x4 View Post

Notice how straight are the control arms angle to the ground.


Also notice how his CV's are pointed up...

(Also notice he is running a turbo...)
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Old 03-23-2014, 01:20 AM   #9
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They make them like this in Iceland, hence the turbo diesel Hilux, there's a company called Arctic Trucks (I think) that makes them, they probably have info you could steal from their website or by email maybe. What I heard is they have almost zero suspension as the giant tires with a super low tire pressure make up for it. Made for cruising across frozen snow and ice. Super high offset rims and wheel spacers and fender flares I would guess.
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Old 03-23-2014, 06:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjmoose View Post
There's this common misconception that a lift doesn't increase clearance .
^This statement is true. A lift does not give you any extra clearance, if your suspension is setup properly. This is because, when you compress your suspension, you should still be hitting your stock bumpstops. By extension, if your are against your bump stops, the required clearance will be the same whether your are lifted or not.

Here's my truck with the suspension at full compression, as an example. At this point, my lift doesn't matter for clearance because my suspension compresses to the exact same spot as it did before the lift:


The real benefit in this setup is that the truck starts out higher off the ground and, because of my longer shocks, I increase my extended length of the suspension.

All that being said, your idea is absolutely doable. You can cut/trim the pinch weld and body to accommodate a larger tire without lifting...
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Old 03-23-2014, 08:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumpskie View Post
^This statement is true. A lift does not give you any extra clearance, if your suspension is setup properly. This is because, when you compress your suspension, you should still be hitting your stock bumpstops. By extension, if your are against your bump stops, the required clearance will be the same whether your are lifted or not.
I think you're talking about clearance to fit larger tires.

I'm talking about clearance for going over obstacles when offroading - approach angle, departure angle, breakover angle.

It is very rare to be at full bump at the same instant that you need maximum obstacle clearance. And if that does happen - the solution is typically to slow down.
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjmoose View Post
I think you're talking about clearance to fit larger tires.

I'm talking about clearance for going over obstacles when offroading - approach angle, departure angle, breakover angle.

It is very rare to be at full bump at the same instant that you need maximum obstacle clearance. And if that does happen - the solution is typically to slow down.
Yeah, I was actually agreeing with you. You're right, the lift improves all of your clearance related angles. And you are also right that lifting a truck doesn't eliminate the need to trim your body because your suspension will cycle regardless of your starting height. (That's what you were saying, right?)
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Old 03-23-2014, 10:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumpskie View Post
Yeah, I was actually agreeing with you. You're right, the lift improves all of your clearance related angles. And you are also right that lifting a truck doesn't eliminate the need to trim your body because your suspension will cycle regardless of your starting height. (That's what you were saying, right?)
It wasn't the point I was trying to make just then, but yeah.
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Old 03-23-2014, 10:38 PM   #14
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To fit 35s, you will have to tub the fire wall. Which means cut a big ass hole in it and then weld a new sheet metal too.

Period.

thats it.

Doesn't matter what kind of lift, you'll have to that with 35s.

With 35s you'll want 4.88s at least with a manual. 4.30s will suck.

This is what i am talking about for tubing: http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/1st...ml#post8006647

Either way you will still have to do a lift of some sort to fit them. Other wise its not worth it. Will ride like crap on stock setup anyways and still won't have much travel cause our stock shocks and coils don't give much in the first place.

if you want a nicer ride, get a better CO like Kings/foxes/Icons/SAWs. Get a nice coil rate depending on if you have bumper/winch/skids/ect.. and then valve them to what you want for the best ride you want.

get them extended travel with new UCAs and you'll have WAY more Down travel then stock and retain the same up travel.

Do the Porche 930 boot mod on the CV boots so you stop blowing boots.

boom. Done.
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Old 03-24-2014, 02:26 AM   #15
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A friend had a bone stock 98 standard cab. He trimmed fenders and wheel openings and managed to stuff 33" Buckshot Mudders 8 ply bias on there. Stock suspension front and back. Installed 5.13 gears and called it a day. The tricky bit was trimming by the fuel tank filler door. No flairs,,just rubber channel glued to the cut out bare sheet metal.
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Old 03-24-2014, 09:35 AM   #16
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Thanks for all theses inputs. I want to keep the lift minimal but it will receive a kind of lift of some sort because I use the truck sometimes to carry stuff. The bed will receive high sides to haul wood.

I plan to use the OME dakar leafs. I know they are designed with strengh in mind and they didn't lift by that much but I expect a minimum of 1.5" from them.

I also plan a 1" body lift, not that I like it so much but it allows a way better acces when it's time to clean the frame from dirt and sand and also it allows air to circulate around it and prevent rust. (Pretty important consideration around here).

I like the coil over front option. If I can find some that are height ajustable at a resonable price that would be my best bet. That truck won't be build to jump anyways. I will be able to set height according to how my truck will evolve and keep the control arm mostly in middle to have as much up and down travel.


I'm ok with the tubing, removing stuff and welding takes time but doesn't cost that much so it's good for my project / budget. I saw something related also with the TLT tacoma. They did almost what you did, that is great. I saw your video on youtube about trimming the bedside.


While I have some expericend people following my tread, I have another question. Can I expect to run the 35" on 8" widht wheel with 4"BS and clearing the frame at full lock? I'd like to keep the backspacing about centered to prevent too much constant axial load on the bearings.

One other thing, I did some gearing calculation and found that keeping 70mph with 35" and 4.88 will give a steady 2700 RPM while 5.29 requires 2950 RPM. That is pretty fast I think. I understand these are better for trail riding but that truck will see lot of highway miles compared to off-road and mostly unloded. Even if it's not the typical top mpg truck set-up I'd like to try to make good numbers.

I find that in stock form the most "agressive" Toyota gearing set-up was the with the 4runner automatic 4.88 w/31" tires that gives a 2570RPM at 70mph. i consider it as un upper limit for fuel efficiency. What do you think about it?

thanks
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Old 03-24-2014, 10:13 AM   #17
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SAW makes a nice CO for a good price that is adjustable.

You will not be able to run a 35'' tire on 4'' BS an not hit the frame. You'll need 3'' or less

you also can't think of RPMs as better or worse mpgs when it comes to gear ratios. This is a common misconception with gears. Making the gear ratio shorter means the load is decrease on the motor itself. Therefore it doesn't have to work as hard to move.

For example of what i am talking about. Put your truck into 4th gear while going 20mph. It'll move..but its struggles and in reality you are using more fuel then with 2nd gear at 2500rpm or whatever it is.

So even thought your increase the rpms by 200rpm, which really isn't that much anyways, you will see an increase in mpgs with 4.88s over 4.10s or 4.30 with the 35s and with loads.

Now none of that means squat unless the tire size goes up so if you regear before you do 35s, you will hurt the mpgs. Either way i mean you mpgs are going to go down cause of 35s. But the blow will be severely less with new gears like 4.88s then if you stayed at a smaller ratio.


also while some 4runners came with 4.88s, tacomas came with 4.56s. The differance is the auto tranny. Autos have taller gears in general over manuals thus the lower numbers. my double cab v6 auto runs at 2-2.1k rpms for 65-70mph. My 96 when it was stock was at 2.5-2.6k for 65-70. Manuals have shorter gears. that said, the power band is usually higher up anyways so my manual also has more get up and go then my auto, plus lots of other factors..
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Old 03-24-2014, 06:06 PM   #18
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Thanks for the input about SAW, never considred them before but they seems to have nice product. There is also lots of tech informations on their website that will be usefull to properly set my suspension height unloaded.

I red a lot yesterday about all these RPM vs MPG myths. The conclusion is an engine is more efficient when at a certain RPM you require like 70% on its available power. ultimatly it's the lower RPM you can use it efficiently. Therefore, there is SOOO much factors that have to be taken into account it's pratically impossible to determine it exactly and also it is never a constant number. Rolling resitance, front exposed wind section, mechanical friction, up hill, down hill, gearing, powerband etc... then guesstimate the right hp required to push all that and adding 1.3... F* that S*.

I took known equipped stock 4x4, V6, tires (225 ans 31") and transmission (auto and 5spds) data and calculated what are their RPM at 70mph on stock configuration. The 70MPH RPM varies between 2065 for an auto 3.56 w/225 to the 4runner V6 auto on 31 and 4.88 that gives: 2570. When you look at the advertised mpg they are all very comparable so that is true it doesn't affect the mpg that much. I'll try to stay on the higher number to compensate or the bigger mass to put in movement.

Therefore I understand why my current Tacoma that is way undergeared being a 3RZ 3.42 on 31" tires has a very poor mileage. I drive it very lightfooted but I always keep the engine very low in RPM. In fact I severly need gear to allow a better use of the power band. I will try to let it climb the rev to see if it impacts on the mpg. Because I need more gear if I let my RPM climb, I always end going too fast and using only first and second gear in city. The poor 3RZ doesn't output enough hp at low rpm to keep the pace.

I'll choose my gears for my next set-up based on that. I don't think I will go up to 5.29 but I will consider the 4.88.

For the records. Diffenrence in top gear RPM between manual and automatics is: A340 autos, 0.705 final drive while the R150f is 0.838. That has a relatively important impact.

Thanks
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Old 03-24-2014, 07:39 PM   #19
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i wouldn't do 5.29s unless your offroad a lot. 4.88s will suit you much better. Have to remember the tires are going to weigh a HELL of a lot more plus be a lot wider thus more resistance..ect.

also...you have 3.42 gears in your diffs?????.....i find that a bit odd as most 4x4 came with 4.10s.

What is your door panel code? use this to determine your ratio.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6iidyyk5s3...Axle_Codes.pdf

I would be shocked and amazed if you had 3.42s...

You should also have the W59 5 speed as your a 3rz. I believe it is only the 5vzfe's and 3vzfes that came with the r150s.

http://www.marlincrawler.com/transmi...built-complete
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Old 03-24-2014, 09:29 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdawg View Post
i wouldn't do 5.29s unless your offroad a lot. 4.88s will suit you much better. Have to remember the tires are going to weigh a HELL of a lot more plus be a lot wider thus more resistance..ect.

also...you have 3.42 gears in your diffs?????.....i find that a bit odd as most 4x4 came with 4.10s.

What is your door panel code? use this to determine your ratio.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6iidyyk5s3...Axle_Codes.pdf

I would be shocked and amazed if you had 3.42s...

You should also have the W59 5 speed as your a 3rz. I believe it is only the 5vzfe's and 3vzfes that came with the r150s.

http://www.marlincrawler.com/transmission/rebuilt-complete

You are right about W59 in my current Taco. This is just because I'm jumping from my current truck to my next project. I want to upgrade to a dual cab.

- My current taco is a '96 3RZ W59 5spds
- My next project wll be a 01-04 dual cab V6... to be converted to R150 manual then everything else we talked before.

It's written B02A in the door jam of my '96. I have used a different site when I looked at it: http://www.brian894x4.com/Gearratiosanddiffs.html
they were 3.58 so I took it for granted... (but it seems I remembered 3.42 instead) In any case my current ratio sucks balls very much with my set-up that is far from being hardcore. A big chance I didn't bought myself a set of 3.73 while thinking it would be a nice upgrade as it seems to be what your website gives me! lol I couldn't imagine the deception!

I have to say my current truck is very basic. No A/C, no electric window, no electric door lock... It came to the world with 225/75R15. I guess it was the most basic of the extended cab 4x4 available so probably received that gearing for that reason. It's a 01/96.
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