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How can we know that 2nd gens are of lower quality

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Old 02-10-2011, 08:17 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by slmgt View Post
when they have only been out since 2005? I am new around here and obviously have an '11. I am curious because it seems there are many threads that A) berate other truck makes or B) sell down the quality/reliability of the Trucks we have. Either we're schizophrenic or something is up

I do not understand how we would know the reliability/quality of these vehicles when they are not very old and therefore cannot have been put through the rigors (re: many years of use) of much older Tacomas/Toyota Pickups.
I get that some parts have changed and what not, but is there indisputable evidence suggesting these part changes resulted in lower quality or is it just cynical speculation?
Ok lets look back to my 87 pickup. It was bulletproof yes but the bed had cancer so bad my body guy and I became great friends. There would have been threads out the ass on that one.
Now look at my 98. The only problem I had with that one was that I traded it in 2 months before the recall because my frame was rusting. So they all had issues but we didnt have TW to harp on it. All we can do is try to help each other and I find this site as helpful aside from the comments that dont help. I hope the future is good to our trucks and us.
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Old 02-10-2011, 08:28 PM   #42
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I know that they don't quite make them like they used to but if I had to go out and buy a new car/truck I'd get a second gen.
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:03 PM   #43
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Glock uses "advanced polymers" to make their stocks, magazines, and other factory parts. They do it for weight, cost, reliability and quality reasons among many others I'm sure. But I don't complain that they are using a plastic in my gun, because when shit hits the fan, criminals and good guys alike know one thing - when the trigger's pulled, that Glock will go bang.

It may seem cheap to use plastic, but I am confident they have good reasons for most implementations of plastic.
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:11 PM   #44
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Here is the fact, if you dont work on your vehicle you know nothing about its quality. Its like blind man complaining about color of the walls in the house.
Toyota's problem is they figure out (read smell the money) that few guys who took their trucks offroad created image that bunch of wannabes want to use to get laid. Toyota spotted market for wannabes which want a car comforts and not planning to use truck as the truck. So Tacoma end up with IFS, electronic crap like shift on the fly and other luxury items that are complete BS on the truck. However, that approach results in trading quality for quantity.
On the side note goign through the list of complains in this thread:

Who the f..k needs bluetooth in the middle of the woods with no cell phone service for miles. How about Ham/Cb radio factory installed.
JBL radio? You need to have your window open and listen to the spotter not to your Britney Spears collection
Engine makes noise - well thats what engines do when they are running, its not Prius or Chevy volt with electric engine.
Blower makes noise - but does it work, if yes then f..k it when it stops spray some wd40 on it and call it a day.
If You need traction control to stay on the road - get a bus pass.
If you affraid your floor mat can get caught under gas pedal - get the bicycle
Rattle in the dashboard - kill damn rattle snake or next time you installing your double din latte cofee making radio make sure all the clips are properly installed. If you dont like what dealer did then fix it yourself.

Tacoma is best quality truck you can buy currently if you dont believe it then buy something else and try it.
people who constantly complain about quality and hang around Toyota are wierd. What are you, a Masochists? Go buy Chevy, Ford or Nissan and sign up to their forums.
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:19 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueT View Post
Here is the fact, if you dont work on your vehicle you know nothing about its quality. Its like blind man complaining about color of the walls in the house.
Toyota's problem is they figure out (read smell the money) that few guys who took their trucks offroad created image that bunch of wannabes want to use to get laid. Toyota spotted market for wannabes which want a car comforts and not planning to use truck as the truck. So Tacoma end up with IFS, electronic crap like shift on the fly and other luxury items that are complete BS on the truck. However, that approach results in trading quality for quantity.
On the side note goign through the list of complains in this thread:

Who the f..k needs bluetooth in the middle of the woods with no cell phone service for miles. How about Ham/Cb radio factory installed.
JBL radio? You need to have your window open and listen to the spotter not to your Britney Spears collection
Engine makes noise - well thats what engines do when they are running, its not Prius or Chevy volt with electric engine.
Blower makes noise - but does it work, if yes then f..k it when it stops spray some wd40 on it and call it a day.
If You need traction control to stay on the road - get a bus pass.
If you affraid your floor mat can get caught under gas pedal - get the bicycle
Rattle in the dashboard - kill damn rattle snake or next time you installing your double din latte cofee making radio make sure all the clips are properly installed. If you dont like what dealer did then fixed yourself.


Tacoma is best quality truck you can buy currently if you dont believe it then buy something else and try it.
people who constantly complain about quality and hang around Toyota are wierd. What are you, a Masochists? Go buy Chevy, Ford or Nissan and sign up to their forums.
excellent, and i agree
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:50 PM   #46
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My 94 Tacoma was not better than the 2008 by any stretch. the doors were paper thin. the bed was even worse. The interior was basic and not much adjusting. the only thing I can say about that truck was it RAN and ran well and never gave me a problem (except for that pesky head gasket issue Toyota fixed free at 80K miles) offroad on any terrain or rocks. But as a comfortable truck,,,,,nah Todays trucks are much better as far as creature comforts go.

I bought the Tacoma truck to have a high riding car with truck properties. If i wanted a vehicle to go to go offroading, it would not be the Tacoma, The Tacoma is too heavy, too wide, and too long for serious off roading.

A Challenger or Wrangler, Hilux would go more places for sure
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:11 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueT View Post
Here is the fact, if you dont work on your vehicle you know nothing about its quality. Its like blind man complaining about color of the walls in the house.
Toyota's problem is they figure out (read smell the money) that few guys who took their trucks offroad created image that bunch of wannabes want to use to get laid. Toyota spotted market for wannabes which want a car comforts and not planning to use truck as the truck. So Tacoma end up with IFS, electronic crap like shift on the fly and other luxury items that are complete BS on the truck. However, that approach results in trading quality for quantity.
On the side note goign through the list of complains in this thread:

Who the f..k needs bluetooth in the middle of the woods with no cell phone service for miles. How about Ham/Cb radio factory installed.
JBL radio? You need to have your window open and listen to the spotter not to your Britney Spears collection
Engine makes noise - well thats what engines do when they are running, its not Prius or Chevy volt with electric engine.
Blower makes noise - but does it work, if yes then f..k it when it stops spray some wd40 on it and call it a day.
If You need traction control to stay on the road - get a bus pass.
If you affraid your floor mat can get caught under gas pedal - get the bicycle
Rattle in the dashboard - kill damn rattle snake or next time you installing your double din latte cofee making radio make sure all the clips are properly installed. If you dont like what dealer did then fix it yourself.

Tacoma is best quality truck you can buy currently if you dont believe it then buy something else and try it.
people who constantly complain about quality and hang around Toyota are wierd. What are you, a Masochists? Go buy Chevy, Ford or Nissan and sign up to their forums.
Well I work on my vehicles so I know about quality. Not everyone can work on their vehicles so they rely on the dealer. Sure. There are quite a bit of great things about my truck. But again I have seen what Toyota can do and this is not up to par of what they have had out in the past.

You need to realize that not everyone is like you. Not all of us live in the middle of nowhere or spend most of out time in the middle of nowhere. Some of us have long commutes everyday. IFS makes the commute better. I'd gladly give up some offroad ability for a better ride on the road. If I wanted maximum offroad ability I would have bought a Wrangler. So since some people can spend a lot of time in their vehicle going to work a little problem like a noisy blower motor and a noisy dash can get annoying. Yeah we have radios to drown out the noise but unless you are playing 3 hour DJ mix then you will have gaps in music where you will hear the blower noise. Yes all engines make noise and ours is a bit loud. I know what is making the sounds. It doesn't bug me but it bugs others. Some don't know what to think when they hear it because they don't know better. Bluetooth is important when on the road. So since I used it everyday I expect it to function properly. I have plenty of cell signal on the way to and from work so I don't need a CB or HAM radio everyday. Maybe if we were back in the 70s where cell phone didn't exist then I can understand the constant need for a CB or HAM. The traction control system is nice to have. Shit happens. You can be the best driver in the world and still crash. All of a sudden a 18 wheeler can jump the divider and you swerve to miss. You don't know what is going to happen in the future so traction control can save you in the event shit does happen. No one here is afraid that something is going to get their pedal stuck. Just because me and a few others have taken it in for the fix doesn't mean shit. I wanted the tranny reflash. I don't care about some stupid pedal that I step on after I step in shit or gum. Cut the shit out of it. It still works right?

I repeat. My Toyota is awesome. Most of us will agree. Toyota of back in the day would not have made so many mistakes but whatever. I had the other brand so I know how much worse it can be.

So I have a question for you. You complain all day about IFS, shift on the fly 4wd and other electronic stuff. Why did you buy a second gen if they are poser trucks now? Shouldn't you be driving your manual everything vehicle instead if the new stuff is so terrible? Your shit if far superior so why did you even bother? Why do you continue to own your 2nd gen after all your shit talking on modern vehicles?
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:12 PM   #48
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its the initial quality (so far) that is not classic toyota, and the few things they have that seem to be on about all of them, but instead of fixing the problem at the factory, they let it persist.
They went from exceptional to average. You can check the initial quality surveys if you want to quantify it. Toyota's been on a slow slide ever since the GM agreement. Was hoping when they dissolved that it would get better not worse.

You're pretty right on whipper snapper. But I'd like to add, back in the day there were a couple different trim levels. I'd like to be able to order what I want. But you just can't anymore. Manual hubs went away, why? Cause americans don't want em. Power windows only, if you want bucket seats, roll up only if you want a bench. Toyota's never been great at packages. Sr5 or base was the order of the day back in the... But it sure would be nice to have turn in hubs and lever if you wanted something more simple and maybe cheaper and were willing to get out of your truck.

Toyota (and most foreign companies) used to sell something smart, now it just sells what people think they want, and guess what, people aren't automotive engineers and ask for crazy stuff. Bigger, more powerful, with diminished efficiency, increased price, and frequently diminished utillity.

What happened to the toyota 1 ton?

Time will tell if the rust issues of toyota have been solved or mitigated. We always used to blame japanese steel, they used a lot of recycled, which was supposed to be inferior. I don't know where their steel comes from now. Anyone got holes in their body yet?

I think the most noticeable thing is, gm and ford are pushing a lot of money into QC and toyota is either losing ground by comparison or actually slipping.
I mean really, rear main seal leaking at 3000 miles? Really?

But landrovers and arguably vw beetles were built for shit, and they sold millions of each of them, and there are still tons around. In the end, its a piece of machinery and if it suits you you can make it work.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:22 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slmgt View Post
The electronics are one of my biggest concerns.

I rather prefer computer automation for many tasks where possible because honestly, "to err is human." Far too many times in our history, I can point to humans as the real root of failure. Things like Three mile island, Chernobyl and the gulf oil spill may very well have been avoided with less human decision making, because emotions cloud judgment. Computers just react to the information they are given. Hence why ABS/TRAC and other technologies are darn useful, but they are more likely to wear out sooner (give and take I guess).
Actually electronics will likely last LONGER than mechanical parts, People don;t realize the ECM systems with all the sensors have been used in cars since the 80's electronics are the last thing to worry about. It is the mechanical parts that actually "wear"... Environmental factors have an impact on electronics. Today's electronic systems are far far better than the early versions 30 years ago.

I think people fear what they don't understand more. People understand the mechanics.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:33 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingfrog View Post

I think people fear what they don't understand more. People understand the mechanics.
Right on brother.

Not that they understand the mechanics, Just more obvious if its working or not.

Tons of people here put carburetors on their vortec GMs.
Its also a huge bitch if you do manage to break some controller when the car is 20 years old. But, like you said, not really a problem. Got my 1977 efi bug working just fine.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:34 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingfrog View Post
Actually electronics will likely last LONGER than mechanical parts, People don;t realize the ECM systems with all the sensors have been used in cars since the 80's electronics are the last thing to worry about. It is the mechanical parts that actually "wear"... Environmental factors have an impact on electronics. Today's electronic systems are far far better than the early versions 30 years ago.

I think people fear what they don't understand more. People understand the mechanics.
That is probably true for the majority of this board, but definitely not me. I understand little about the mechanics, but much more about technology. Unfortunately not so much about car technology so I guess in general, I'm pretty far behind where I want to be with vehicles (mechanically and electronically). In the IT world, virtually no technology is expected to last 20 years [sans problems/failure] - seemed only logical to believe the same is true about vehicles.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:36 PM   #52
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I figure that you should take any of the negative stuff with a grain of salt as a lot of people like to bitch if there is something wrong. typically speaking your more likely to read bad reports than good because people who don't have negative reports seem to keep the good news to them selfs.
personally i hope that my truck lasts 15 years but doubt the capabilities and reliability of the electronics. Also i find the the fit and finish is better in Tacoma's than in both Ford and Chevy 1/2 ton and 1/4 ton trucks in my personal experience, Although i may be biased because i am a dye hard fan of Toyota. Plus if you beat the shit out of it, it isn't going to last, like anything.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:45 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slmgt View Post
That is probably true for the majority of this board, but definitely not me. I understand little about the mechanics, but much more about technology. Unfortunately not so much about car technology so I guess in general, I'm pretty far behind where I want to be with vehicles (mechanically and electronically). In the IT world, virtually no technology is expected to last 20 years [sans problems/failure] - seemed only logical to believe the same is true about vehicles.
I think what I meant to indicate is that the useful life of the vehicle will be long gone before the electronics systems. Yeah now and then a window motor will need replacing but junk yards everywhere are filled with 30 years worth of fully working motors . ECMS. Sensors. Radios..on and on....

I don;t think anyone has ever junked a car because of massive electronics failure lol
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:49 PM   #54
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I think what I meant to indicate is that the useful life of the vehicle will be long gone before the electronics systems. Yeah now and then a window motor will need replacing but junk yards everywhere are filled with 30 years worth of fully working motors . ECMS. Sensors. Radios..on and on....
I don't know about you but around me the junk yards are a dying industry. i have seen a few go do to lack of sales. That and the "just buy new" attitude that people have now makes me question the availability of parts from a junk yard in the future. But thats the future so who the f#$k knows.
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Old 02-10-2011, 10:51 PM   #55
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i prefer manual stuff not electronic. i understand it fine but in the case of manual tcase and hubs i find the electronic crap to be a pain in the ass. In other vehicles ive had failures with the systems. Like the vacuum motor that actuates the front diff. id be in 4wd but the front wheels wouldnt turn. turned out to be the electronically activated vacuum solonoid on the transfercase was stuck so it would not allow vaccum to actuate the front diff. i was stuck in the middle of nowhere. I probably should have left it in 4wd but i didnt and it failed. I have never had a warn hub fail. although if they did it is servicable on the trail and easier to diagnose.

as for the t case, i find it nice to be able to go into 4wd/4lo whenever without having to have a computer tell me its ok. its so annoying to switch and not have it go into gear especially if you cant continue through or up. gotta stop, back up or move forward if you can, try again and hope it goes in... then you gotta do it all over in 4lo...

every vehicle that has been a lever has gone in noooo problem for the life of the vehicle...

either way, i can fix either just prefer mechanical due to ease of diagnosis and in my experiences manual has been more reliable...
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:31 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingfrog View Post
I think what I meant to indicate is that the useful life of the vehicle will be long gone before the electronics systems. Yeah now and then a window motor will need replacing but junk yards everywhere are filled with 30 years worth of fully working motors . ECMS. Sensors. Radios..on and on....

I don;t think anyone has ever junked a car because of massive electronics failure lol
I have junked 2 cars due to failed electrical system, one diagnosed and not worth it, the other, I never figured out and wasn't worth trying further (subaru was just dumping fuel into the cylinders in gallons then a friend cross threaded a spark plug)


I hear they still have junk yards in some rural corners of the world, but more and more they're crushing as fast as they can, only stripping off good quality high dollar/desire parts. Recycling i a big business, and seeping fluids onto the ground is big fines, junk yards are disappearing fast.

doesn't really matter, sooner or later they'll stop allowing us to register old POS junkers making all those parts obsolete.
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:42 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by slmgt View Post
when they have only been out since 2005? I am new around here and obviously have an '11. I am curious because it seems there are many threads that A) berate other truck makes or B) sell down the quality/reliability of the Trucks we have. Either we're schizophrenic or something is up

I do not understand how we would know the reliability/quality of these vehicles when they are not very old and therefore cannot have been put through the rigors (re: many years of use) of much older Tacomas/Toyota Pickups.

I get that some parts have changed and what not, but is there indisputable evidence suggesting these part changes resulted in lower quality or is it just cynical speculation?

My 2006 has 223k on it, much of it hard off-road miles. Many thousands of miles in 4WD on snow covered roads as well. It runs like new. It has not broken down on me. Only a few minor-ish repairs. No rattles either.

In my book this indicates reliability and quality.
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:48 PM   #58
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slmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qnyla View Post
My 2006 has 223k on it, much of it hard off-road miles. Many thousands of miles in 4WD on snow covered roads as well. It runs like new. It has not broken down on me. Only a few minor-ish repairs. No rattles either.

In my book this indicates reliability and quality.
Thanks for the anecdotal story. You certainly drive a lot - very cool!
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:55 PM   #59
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island808 is one of the sharper tools in the shedisland808 is one of the sharper tools in the shedisland808 is one of the sharper tools in the shedisland808 is one of the sharper tools in the shedisland808 is one of the sharper tools in the shedisland808 is one of the sharper tools in the shedisland808 is one of the sharper tools in the shedisland808 is one of the sharper tools in the shedisland808 is one of the sharper tools in the shedisland808 is one of the sharper tools in the shedisland808 is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
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yea, anecdotes don't count for much. I saw a first gen (america) escort on the road a couple weeks ago. That guy might say the same, we know different. Taurus was another one, they seemed to last forever or about 35000 miles. SO everyone has an extreme opinion.
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Old 02-11-2011, 12:16 AM   #60
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slmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shedslmgt is one of the sharper tools in the shed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by island808 View Post
yea, anecdotes don't count for much. I saw a first gen (america) escort on the road a couple weeks ago. That guy might say the same, we know different. Taurus was another one, they seemed to last forever or about 35000 miles. SO everyone has an extreme opinion.
Without anecdotes however, we'd be left with nothing to analyze. The aggregate of our anecdotes is what makes up statistics. The vast majority of threads on here are based completely on anecdotes and while they do not provide a perfect picture, they at least show us potential scenarios.
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