Thoughts on Hydrogen Generator Kits??

Actually unleaded gasoline engines require the hardened seats.
The lead in leaded gasoline was what 'lubricated' the valve seats before unleaded fuel came about.

You can still run unleaded fuel without the hardened seats, just your valve-seat life is reduced.

 

The hydrogen generator system works, but you're spending 10 to make 7. Only governments see that as economy.

 

??? There is plenty of people using the torque app to measure fuel usage and saying it works great. Here's the thread on it.

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/performance-tuning/183560-write-up-torque-app-obd2-reader.html

I know personally I was actually getting a lot lower mpg readings until I corrected the settings to U.S. Imperial gallons versus the British Imperial gallons.

 

IT ONELY WORKS ON CARB ENGINES NOT FUEL INJECTED

 

I meant to say it was unleaded that required the hardened seats. I can't remember the exact year, though I am sure someone will know, that they stopped selling leaded gas. My old Mustang, when I finally had to run unleaded, I had to put an additive in the gasoline. Wasn't too expensive as I recall.

And I guess nobody here seems to realize what I mean when I say the THEORY is sound. What I am saying is that IF you could provide enough HHO to the engine, it WILL run off of it. So the THEORY IS SOUND, it is the APPLICATION that still needs work. People, READ. Enough said.

 

And for the most part, they are snake oil.
If something can improve MPG without having a negative impact on the engine or maintenance costs, the manufacturers will be doing it.

You can do MINOR tweaks to improve economy at the cost of power, or you can tweak to gain more power at the cost of economy, but with manufacturers being under CAFE standards, they are doing everything they can to improve mileage of the fleet so they can continue to offer "gas hog" vehicles.

I won't say that I've seen it all, but I've seen a LOT in the last 45 years. I've lived through multiple "energy crises" including two where we actually had gas rationing... could only buy gas every other day... and that was IF the station still had any left by the time you got to the pump after waiting in line from 5 to 7am.

People have been hocking "gadgets" and chemicals for over 40 years that all promise to give you a 10% improvement in fuel economy.

At best, they do nothing.
Occasionally, they cost economy.
At worst, they can cause damage.
Slick-50 and other PTFE treatments are a prime example.
Dupont went so far so as to stop selling PTFE to the Slick-50 company (it was a big MLM thing in the late 70s), and got dragged into court.
The court ruled that Dupont could not force a "customer" to use their product in any specific manner, they could only prohibit the customer from using their trademark "Teflon" without permission.

So Slick-50 resumed making PTFE additives, but left MLM and went to OTC, and STP and a few other companies did the same.
Meanwhile, Dupont issued a release that PTFE should not be used in the lubrication system of an ICE, and that manufacturer claims of PTFE "bondng" to engine parts was false.
At the same time, Slick-50 went from being a lifetime treatment to a "use it every oil change" product.


If PTFE did anything positive to improve economy, the EPA would require it's addition to motor oils, just as they have mandated the changes in additive packages over the years through the API grades (is SN out yet?).

 

Barely... you were only 5 when it was phased out

Cats were added to most passenger cars in 1974.
Some were exempt... the VW air-cooled engines, and the Honda CVCC for some reason did not require it immediately.
Cats weren't added to pickups until later, but by that time, leaded fuel was gone except for AVGas.

 

NOPE! I knew I remembered buying it in high school, so I looked it up. Though it began to be phased out in the mid 70s, it was not actually outlawed until 1986! I bought my Mustang in 1985.

 

Wow... we couldn't get it here in California after '76 or so.

"Low Lead" became available before '74, and I think unleaded availability did predate cats by a year or so.
"Low lead" replaced regular leaded during the transition, but leaded was long gone by the time I started driving in '78.

 

Think about where the ECU gets its fuel consumption, probably the fuel injectors (i.e. cyl 2 injector on for X millisec, so Y picoliters of fuel sprayed). While this is accurate enough for instantaneous mpg, over time the errors add up. Only accurate method for average mpg is to record the odometer between fill-ups.

My Subaru has the fuel milage built into the clock/airbag display. In normal around-town driving, instantaneous mpg fluctuates wildly between 7 mpg and 110 mpg.

 

I have seen it work.

 

I have to agree with the Snake OIl comments. When I was in Grad school I thought I would make an "investment" to try and save $some ca$h as gas prices skyrocketed. I did a lot of research and finally chose a snake oil saleman/ company. I could have saved the $900 for gas (or better yet upgrades for the truck e.g. skid plates and a lift). I have yet to meet anyone that has actually bought or made one of these with any success, (several friends have tried since my excursion). In theory it is a great idea, in reality it can't seem to work. I guess there are several bugs to work out.

 

My UG is pretty close. Normally on a 350 mile tank, my trip MPG on the Ultragauge is within 0.2 mpg of calculated.

Ya... instant will go to 150+ coasting down hill.

 

1 - Conservation of Energy
2 - Thermodynamics
3 - Entropy

You can toy with 2 a bit, but you can't get energy from nothing, and no energy conversion is 100% efficient.

Even with 100% efficiency (impossible in this universe), your best case is a break-even.
The only alternative is to introduce energy into the system from an external source.

Plug-in hybrid if you will....

Onboard batteries charged from a charging station used to drive the hydrogen generator.
Solar cells on the roof used to charge onboard batteries at all times (so you can still run the system at night).
Etc...

A closed-loop system can not produce it's own fuel.

 

A closed-loop system can not produce it's own fuel.[/QUOTE]

yep, I agree. I learned my lesson the expensive way.

 

As we learned the first 2 laws of thermodynamics in physics 101:
1. You can't win.
2. You can't even break even.

 

Saw an interesting hybrid concept. It's a hydraulic hybrid as opposed to an electrical one. It generates hydraulic pressure from stopping and releases that pressure to start the vehicle moving again. It's primary use right now is going to be large trucks that do a lot of stopping and starting, e.g. delivery trucks, garbage trucks and buses.

Supposedly this company achieved 60% fuel efficiency increase in the lab and 50% in real world use (UPS trucks delivering in Detroit). Another big advantage is it's cheaper than an electric hybrid because it doesn't use the expensive batteries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc1iAhX8EWg

 

Evil Monkey, that's an awesome concept! I hope it catches on. Seems to work and no batteries.

 

Here's an F-150 prototype:
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/0...velop-40-mpg-hydraulic-hybrid-powertrain.html

This company (NRG Dynamics) is making small retrofit devices that will be able to convert an existing vehicle into an hydraulic hybrid. One of the applications they noted that would benefit are off-road vehicles. Their goal is a 2-year return on investment (ROI).

http://www.nrgdynamix.com/video.php

 

Technology is sound. The biggest drawback to hydraulic drive is the lower efficiency. Whereas electric motors and generators 90-95% efficient, hydraulic motors and pumps are around 70% efficient. So by simply pressurizing the accumulator and then using it to drive the wheels, you lose half the energy. If the actual hardware is a series-hybrid like it's shown in the diagram, then highway milage will be worse than a conventional diesel truck, but this can be resolved by adding a direct-drive mode to the the pump/motor assembly.

The benefit to hydraulic drive is the much lighter weight, so there's no payload penalty.