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Old 10-03-2012, 12:07 PM   #81
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Good stuff here! As far as I can tell everything you posted is correct. Unfortunatley it looks like we are supposed to have engine regulation in 4H with no buttons pushed. I too read the owners manual and what I got from it was when it refers to ALSD, it says it prevents the REAR wheels from spinning. It doesnt say anything about using it in 4WD.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:13 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nfowler View Post
OK, Fools rush in where angels ....

Like the OP, I have a 2012 4x4 SR5 AT V6. I do not have A-TRAC. I have read all the posts here, and am still confused, so I read the 2012 owner's manual, section 2-4 carefully, several times. Note that it only talks about turning A-LSD ON (and only in 2WD mode) and turning TRAC OFF.

Furthermore, it also says, " Automatic TRAC reactivation (AUTO LSD mode). With AUTO LSD mode, VSC OFF and AUTO LSD indicator lights turn on. The TRAC system will turn on when the vehicle speed increases." So, I'm not sure that A-LSD and TRAC are the same thing at all. See definitions below

Anyway, there are only 3 drive modes, and for me, only 3 VSC-switch modes, so the 9x9 matrix should be easy to understand, right?? From reading the manual, here's what I have:

...............................2WD-Hi................4WD-Hi.................4WD-Lo

Normal ....................VSC ON............... VSC ON.................VSC OFF
(After Engine.............A-LSD OFF............TRAC ON
Start).......................Eng Reg OFF......... Eng Reg ON

VSC-Button OFF..........VSC OFF...............VSC ON................VSC OFF
................................A-LSD ON .............TRAC OFF
...............................Eng Reg ON............Eng Reg OFF

VSC-Button OFF..........VSC OFF................VSC OFF................VSC OFF
Hold >3 Sec...............TRAC OFF...............TRAC OFF
.................................Eng Reg OFF..........Eng Reg OFF

Please help me fill this in correctly!

Here are the definitions from the 2012 owner's manual:

The active traction control system (A-TRAC) automatically helps prevent the spinning of 4 wheels when the vehicle is started or accelerated on slippery road surfaces.

The AUTO LSD system aids traction by using the traction control system to control engine performance and braking when one of the rear wheels begins to spin. The system should be used only when one of the rear wheels spinning occurs in a ditch or rough surface.

The system can be used on 2WD models and in 2WD mode on 4WD
models.


When the AUTO LSD system is turned on, the VSC system will turn
on automatically if vehicle speed increases.


VSC (Vehicle Stability Control) Helps the driver to control skidding when swerving suddenly or turning on slippery road surfaces.

TRAC (Traction Control) Helps to maintains drive power and prevent the drive wheels from spinning when starting the vehicle or accelerating on slippery roads.

Note: The manual seems to imply that in 4HI, if you push the VSC-OFF button once, TRAC goes OFF but VSC stays on, the opposite from what it implies in 2Hi where VSC goes OFF but A-LSD comes ON.

Whoever wrote this was on some good stuff!


N. Fowler

PS Post #32 in this thread has a pointer to the 2012 Owner's Manual sections 2-4.

*
Either that, or it was translated using google translate with voice dictation from being hollered across the 2TR-FE engine factory in Japan with machines running in the background.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:15 PM   #83
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I think im gonna try somthin dumb. LOL

Im gonna go find a slick muddy spot and see if I can tie myself off to a big ass tree to pull off of. I will try each mode and get sombody on the outside of the truck helping me watch how the wheels spin (ill get em to record this crazy chit too LOL). Like this I should be able to try each 2WD & 4WD mode out and have a video reference to prove it. We might even be able to make a sticky out of it, cause we damn sure have enough threads on it.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:17 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Either that, or it was translated using google translate with voice dictation from being hollered across the 2TR-FE engine factory in Japan with machines running in the background.
This made me LOL.

And you damn sure cant deny that youre country either. Cause only us folks down south use words like HOLLER. LOL
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:21 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFlap View Post
Good stuff here! As far as I can tell everything you posted is correct. Unfortunatley it looks like we are supposed to have engine regulation in 4H with no buttons pushed. I too read the owners manual and what I got from it was when it refers to ALSD, it says it prevents the REAR wheels from spinning. It doesnt say anything about using it in 4WD.
I think they hire the same sumo wrestlers to write the manual as Yamaha hires to tighten crankcase drain bolts.
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:22 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFlap View Post
This made me LOL.

And you damn sure cant deny that youre country either. Cause only us folks down south use words like HOLLER. LOL
... I've spent a lot of time in south FL.
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Old 10-03-2012, 01:08 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MudFlap View Post
I think im gonna try somthin dumb. LOL

Im gonna go find a slick muddy spot and see if I can tie myself off to a big ass tree to pull off of. I will try each mode and get sombody on the outside of the truck helping me watch how the wheels spin (ill get em to record this crazy chit too LOL). Like this I should be able to try each 2WD & 4WD mode out and have a video reference to prove it. We might even be able to make a sticky out of it, cause we damn sure have enough threads on it.
Make sure the shot is wide enough to get the entire tree in the frame. The money you win for the video may cover repairs.

The way I read it, all A-LSD references are for 2WD, and all TRAC references are specific to 4WD. There's a difference between TRAC and ATRAC, so depending on the truck, Toyota does have to make a confusing distinction. Since A-LSD is really just 2WD TRAC (or ATRAC), dropping all references to A-LSD would help clarify the nomenclature, IMO.

Does the Tacoma come with a mechanical rear LSD? If not, that's even more reason to drop all references to LSD and stick with TRAC to name that functionality. Unrelated - this is another reason Toyota would do us a favor by dumping rear drum brakes, since disc brakes would seem to work better for TRAC.
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Old 10-03-2012, 01:23 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
The way I read that is like this;
4wd, no lights on: TRAC = LSD + engine regulation.
4wd, TRAC-OFF light on: ALSD + NO engine regulation.
4wd, TRAC-OFF light on, VSC-OFF light on: Open diff.


That would seem to fit with my theory.
We don't know that (hi-lighted above in bold). He never hit the button in 4wd High while pulling the car out of the ditch. He was in the default TRAC on & VSC on mode where throttle was regulated.

He needs to do another test where he's in 4wd High, and presses the VSC button once so the TRAC Off light comes on. That's where we will see if there's any brake or throttle regulation. I'm going assume it's open diffs, with VSC on.
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Old 10-03-2012, 02:13 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GP3 View Post
We don't know that (hi-lighted above in bold). He never hit the button in 4wd High while pulling the car out of the ditch. He was in the default TRAC on & VSC on mode where throttle was regulated.

He needs to do another test where he's in 4wd High, and presses the VSC button once so the TRAC Off light comes on. That's where we will see if there's any brake or throttle regulation. I'm going assume it's open diffs, with VSC on.

I agree, I bet it IS open diff with VSC on.

On a serious note, I think the best option for those of us with a 2012 OR is to do the locker mod. So we can lock the rear while in 4H, if we need any more traction than that, we can get 4L and use ATRAC and locker.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:15 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GP3 View Post
We don't know that (hi-lighted above in bold). He never hit the button in 4wd High while pulling the car out of the ditch. He was in the default TRAC on & VSC on mode where throttle was regulated.

He needs to do another test where he's in 4wd High, and presses the VSC button once so the TRAC Off light comes on. That's where we will see if there's any brake or throttle regulation. I'm going assume it's open diffs, with VSC on.
VSC depends on engine regulation, it is therefore no different than ALSD + engine regulation. That's the default mode.

The fact that there are different lights between tap and long-press in 4wd suggests that there is some actual difference between the two modes. VSC can't possibly be in effect for either mode, so the only remaining possible difference is that there is ALSD in one of them. Since long press is "fully off", it must mean that short press = ALSD.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:22 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoorDing View Post
Make sure the shot is wide enough to get the entire tree in the frame. The money you win for the video may cover repairs.

The way I read it, all A-LSD references are for 2WD, and all TRAC references are specific to 4WD. There's a difference between TRAC and ATRAC, so depending on the truck, Toyota does have to make a confusing distinction. Since A-LSD is really just 2WD TRAC (or ATRAC), dropping all references to A-LSD would help clarify the nomenclature, IMO.

Does the Tacoma come with a mechanical rear LSD? If not, that's even more reason to drop all references to LSD and stick with TRAC to name that functionality. Unrelated - this is another reason Toyota would do us a favor by dumping rear drum brakes, since disc brakes would seem to work better for TRAC.
There are precisely two differences between TRAC and ATRAC:
ATRAC has an electric/hydraulic brake booster,
ATRAC operates in 4L.

Quite frankly, they should eliminate the "TRAC"/"ATRAC" names, which are there strictly to add magic to the list of features and accomplish nothing but add confusion. Stick with ALSD all the way through.

The different modes should be named like this;

2H: VSC, ALSD, OPEN
4H: VSC, ALSD, OPEN
4L: OPEN, ALSD, OPEN+RLOCK, ALSD+RLOCK

After all, those are, in effect, all of the actual modes available, just written in a way that is more consistent with standard nomenclature.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:27 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
There are precisely two differences between TRAC and ATRAC:
ATRAC has an electric/hydraulic brake booster,
ATRAC operates in 4L.

Quite frankly, they should eliminate the "TRAC"/"ATRAC" names, which are there strictly to add magic to the list of features and accomplish nothing but add confusion. Stick with ALSD all the way through.

The different modes should be named like this;

2H: VSC, ALSD, OPEN
4H: VSC, ALSD, OPEN
4L: OPEN, ALSD, OPEN+RLOCK, ALSD+RLOCK

After all, those are, in effect, all of the actual modes available, just written in a way that is more consistent with standard nomenclature.
That seems fine to me, and it's a hell of a lot simpler to understand and utilize than the current official mess. A few controls tied to a small display that clearly showed the state of the systems would be a huge improvement.

When I start using the OR capabilities of my truck, I'll keep your breakdown in mind. Thank you.
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:26 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
VSC depends on engine regulation, it is therefore no different than ALSD + engine regulation. That's the default mode.
I understand what VSC is. We're talking about traction control (TRAC/ALSD/ATRAC). VSC is a whole different system and should be left out of the conversation for the time being. It only adds confusion. Your post is evidence of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
The fact that there are different lights between tap and long-press in 4wd suggests that there is some actual difference between the two modes.
There is a simple difference between the two 4wd high modes (there's actually three, but I'll leave the third VSC Off one out): TRAC Off; TRAC On. The "TRAC Off" light indicates this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
VSC can't possibly be in effect for either mode, so the only remaining possible difference is that there is ALSD in one of them. Since long press is "fully off", it must mean that short press = ALSD.
If "VSC can't possibly be in effect" why isn't the VSC OFF light on?

If "ALSD is in one of them" why isn't the AutoLSD light on?

VSC is not traction control, and does not change what traction control mode you are in. It is simply on or off (under 30 mph).
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:33 AM   #94
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On my '12 Sport, I can't turn off vsc (truck w. lines) and still have TRAC on in 4wd
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:51 AM   #95
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Even when VSC is off it isn't really off.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:00 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whippersnapper02 View Post
Even when VSC is off it isn't really off.
That's the Toyota Way.

Whip, is there proof that VSC Off still gives the VSC system some control? Over the years, I've read of stability systems that are never fully disengaged, no matter the driver settings. I can imagine that a relatively high CG vehicle like a 4WD Tacoma might always have at least a minor bit of VSC always lending a hand.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:07 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoorDing View Post
That's the Toyota Way.

Whip, is there proof that VSC Off still gives the VSC system some control? Over the years, I've read of stability systems that are never fully disengaged, no matter the driver settings. I can imagine that a relatively high CG vehicle like a 4WD Tacoma might always have at least a minor bit of VSC always lending a hand.
This is the only proof I've seen. It doesn't mention 4wd though.



This one mentions 4wd.

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Auto LSD-untitled.png   Auto LSD-toyotadrivemodes-1.jpg  
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:11 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GP3 View Post
I understand what VSC is. We're talking about traction control (TRAC/ALSD/ATRAC). VSC is a whole different system and should be left out of the conversation for the time being. It only adds confusion. Your post is evidence of that.
No, VSC is the exact same system.

TRAC *is* ALSD *is* ATRAC. Effectively just different names for the same thing.

Quote:
There is a simple difference between the two 4wd high modes (there's actually three, but I'll leave the third VSC Off one out): TRAC Off; TRAC On. The "TRAC Off" light indicates this.
Nobody cares what you want to CALL the modes, the IMPORTANT part is what they each DO.

VSC (ALSD+engine regulation = default mode)
ALSD (like VSC without engine regulation = tap button)
OFF (open differential = hold button)

Now you want to quibble about when the thing is making use of the sideways sensor, be my guest. It quite frankly does not apply to this discussion.

Quote:
If "VSC can't possibly be in effect" why isn't the VSC OFF light on?
Because its turned off, obviously.

Quote:
If "ALSD is in one of them" why isn't the AutoLSD light on?
Because its turned off, obviously.

Quote:
VSC is not traction control, and does not change what traction control mode you are in. It is simply on or off (under 30 mph).
VSC most definitely includes a traction control mode.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:12 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GP3 View Post
This is the only proof I've seen. It doesn't mention 4wd though.

Thanks!

The footnotes indicate that even disabled, VSC is waiting in the wings. That might be a problem on a performance car at the track, but at least on paper, I think that's a good approach for a 4WD truck.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:14 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoorDing View Post
That's the Toyota Way.

Whip, is there proof that VSC Off still gives the VSC system some control? Over the years, I've read of stability systems that are never fully disengaged, no matter the driver settings. I can imagine that a relatively high CG vehicle like a 4WD Tacoma might always have at least a minor bit of VSC always lending a hand.
The Toyota way for sure. Lexus is even worse with VSC. There are no buttons to turn it off until recently in the new ISF and LFA.

There has been a time or two where I triggered it even though it was off. I could be wrong though. I try not to drive crazy offroad because I'm allergic to dying. Next time I'm somewhere with a lot of space I will try it.
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