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Old 10-19-2012, 09:16 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoorDing View Post
Do you have any evidence of that? Many high performance braking applications use disc brakes, from all manner of racing vehicles to aircraft, and even spacecraft. I believe discs are also favored for cranes and other high load, cable drawn applications. Again, I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with drum brakes, but I'd like to see evidence that "Quality engineering favors the drum."
Just to play devil's advocate...next time you see a parked semi truck, take a look at the brakes it has, both truck and trailer.
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:31 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoorDing View Post
I've never seen or heard of the maintenance and sizing issues you've described WRT rear disc brakes, but I'll take your word for it. I've never seen a brake disc (front or rear) in regular use that developed enough rust in the friction area that it wasn't quickly cleared after a few applications of the the main braking system.

You missed at least one e-brake system. I don't care for the goofy mini-drum setups, but plenty of systems use a cable to drive the main caliper. Those systems brake just as well as any rear drum e-brake system.

I also don't believe drum brakes are significantly more expensive to produce than disc brakes, or that manufacturers are doing anyone a favor by putting drums on less expensive vehicles, while using discs on higher end ones. I have no proof of that, other than what we see in model and trim level packages throughout the industry. Rear brake performance is far less important than front brakes, and if a manufacturer could cut costs by installing four wheel discs, I think that's all we'd see.
Marketing gets a bit weird in some situations, like paying a premium for superior performance. The lower end model may be equipped with the more expensive hardware just so you have to change up to the high end to get the perceived advantage (real or not). Marketing is all about manipulating the customer into giving you more money for less product. As I mentioned, in car and SUV applications where the rear load is consistent, rear disks do make sense, since they can be sized appropriately for the consistent load. Its with the swinging load, where a pickup can have a load on the rear swing by 1500-2000 pounds or more depending on whether it is empty or loaded to capacity. Some models of Tacoma have a 1500 pound payload capacity, and given that the majority of its 4000 pound curb weight is sitting on the front, that probably represents at or near two times the empty load on the rear axle, which means that you can apply a lot more braking force before it locks up.

Yes, most of the stopping power is from the front, but when you've got most of your weight sitting over the rear axle, you'd be surprised just how much stopping the back can do.

I've *owned* a pickup with rear disks and a MAJOR rear disk rusting problem. The rear disks had to be replaced on it every single year I owned it because it would develop massive bands of heavy rust. Before that truck, my previous had drums in the rear. 250,000 km and only ONE change of shoes. No other work done (just occasional checkups) on the rear brakes.

Not knowing where you call home, the rear disk rust problem may or may not be an issue there. The salt belts certainly experience this.

Quote:
if a manufacturer could cut costs by installing four wheel discs, I think that's all we'd see.
That is, in fact, what you're starting to see. There are a few places where drums are installed as an intentional downgrade feature (among other downgrades and/or lack of upgrades) in order to push people into the premium model or upgraded package.

As far as Manufacturing expense goes, it is very easy to show that disks are cheaper to manufacture than drums. Just count all the parts! There is more material (steel is not cheap) on a drum than a disk, the machine required for cutting a drum surface is more complex and expensive. Even the physical shape of a drum is more complex to manufacture than a disk, most of which can just be cut out of a sheet. Both include a hydraulic slave cylinder with rubber seals and pistons, but there are a pile of springs and levers in the drum that aren't present in a disk.

So there you have it. Two kinds of brakes, both are good brakes, both have advantages and disadvantages. The key is to use it in the place where it is best suited. Sometimes, the wrong one goes into a place, just because there are so many people who have this unfounded impression that one is better than the other. Yes, disk brakes are better than drums, however, only in the specific applications where they actually are.
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:35 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoorDing View Post
Do you have any evidence of that? Many high performance braking applications use disc brakes, from all manner of racing vehicles to aircraft, and even spacecraft. I believe discs are also favored for cranes and other high load, cable drawn applications. Again, I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with drum brakes, but I'd like to see evidence that "Quality engineering favors the drum."
Be aware that this discussion is about rear brakes on Tacomas (and/or pickups in general), not race cars, cranes, or the space shuttle. As such, you have done an admirable job of emulating the news media and taken my quote FAR out of context.
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:39 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by jberry813 View Post
Just to play devil's advocate...next time you see a parked semi truck, take a look at the brakes it has, both truck and trailer.
Also, this should be considered with respect to my statements regarding wild variations in load. In the case of a semi, that could be as much as 80,000 pounds distributed across 4 axles -- two on the rear of the tractor, two on the rear of the trailer.


Hey wait... did you just call me the devil?
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:56 AM   #25
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See, I told you these threads always get town apart by some guy stating drum brakes are better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phoenix View Post
Be aware that this discussion is about rear brakes on Tacomas (and/or pickups in general), not race cars, cranes, or the space shuttle. As such, you have done an admirable job of emulating the news media and taken my quote FAR out of context.
The discussion was which Toyota models share the same basic rear brake design, but offer disc brakes. With the intention of performing a low dollar rear disc conversion.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:11 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jberry813 View Post
Just to play devil's advocate...next time you see a parked semi truck, take a look at the brakes it has, both truck and trailer.
Many class 8 trucks are going to discs believe it or not. FWIW



and I know FAR too much about the damn systems while barely scratching the surface
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:16 AM   #27
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Well that was quick.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:19 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by jberry813 View Post
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Well that was quick.
Based on his posts just in this thread, I was wondering if he was some member who was once banned before and just came back with a changed name. I know I wasn't dropping posts like that until I got to know this forum and my truck a little better.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:21 AM   #29
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^Yep. Not a doubt in my mind.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:21 AM   #30
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Quote:
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Well that was quick.

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/off...ml#post5861135
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:25 AM   #31
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:27 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phoenix View Post
Be aware that this discussion is about rear brakes on Tacomas (and/or pickups in general), not race cars, cranes, or the space shuttle. As such, you have done an admirable job of emulating the news media and taken my quote FAR out of context.
Nice shot, but he's the one that talked about performance, so I extrapolated that to high performance situations. All he had to do was qualify his remark, which he later did.

Seemed pretty Shempy to me before Jason's heads up. ^^^
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:39 AM   #33
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I know this is not a "which is better" thread, so I won't belabor it. I have built a few brake systems for vehicles from scratch and typically the rear axles in question came originally equipped with drums. The question of the disk brake conversion was there. Except in instances where the brakes had to endure long application or braking from extreme high speed, the benefit on the rear just wasn't there. The disks do have the advantage in resisting brake fade and that is what makes them so valualble in the front where braking force is very high. In fact all the disk/drum systems involved the use of a proportioning valve to dial down the braking in the rear to prevent lockup. More braking efficiency would have just meant a lower setting on the valve.

In high performance applications like sports cars, a major factor to consider is unsprung weight. It's especially important on light vehicles with independent suspension. The decision to use disks on performance cars with 4 wheel independent suspension is largely driven by that. On a heavy solid axle, the added weight of the drum is less important.

The need for a disk is design criteria specific, and you can't compare apples to oranges.

Sorry if I interrupted
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:43 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BORNWILDGUY View Post
This is just like taking the disc brakes off the sequoia in rear to install on the back of a 04-06 tundra. Same concept basically and yes Toyota should have put disc on the rear of the tacoma as std equip. Def much easier to maintain.

Just found this website which offers a complete kit

http://www.tundraracing.com/rbck.htm
Avoid this kit like the plague.
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Old 10-19-2012, 10:46 AM   #35
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^Was patiently waiting for you to post.
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:02 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jberry813 View Post
^Was patiently waiting for you to post.
lol I was just spectating for a bit.

On the bright side, at least Tundra Racing realized that its kit's parking brake it 100% useless and went with a more stout solution for those willing to shell out the cash. I hadn't seen this one before:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeyLikesIt View Post
This kit uses the 4Runner rear disc parts;

http://www.tundraracing.com/proseriesprerunner.htm
That said, the stock master cylinder can only flow so much fluid. Something designed to flow for drum brake wheel cylinders is gonna have a crap time trying to keep up with the volume requirements of disc brake calipers.
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:05 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjp2 View Post
That said, the stock master cylinder can only flow so much fluid. Something designed to flow for drum brake wheel cylinders is gonna have a crap time trying to keep up with the volume requirements of disc brake calipers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jberry813 View Post
...Yes the MS will work, but the initial pedal feel is going to feel like it's going to the floor because your taking a MS that was designed to push two tiny wheel cylinders to now push two rather large single piston caliper....
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:07 AM   #38
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:45 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by mjp2 View Post
Why? It looks like a great kit! They even include an upgraded master cylinder to deal with the heavier volume dema ... oh, they don't.

$800 sounds like a lot of money to spend for something that's likely to screw up your truck. mjp2, do you have a thread discussing this kit's failings? I think it'd be an interesting read.
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:49 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by DoorDing View Post
Why? It looks like a great kit! They even include an upgraded master cylinder to deal with the heavier volume dema ... oh, they don't.

$800 sounds like a lot of money to spend for something that's likely to screw up your truck. mjp2, do you have a thread discussing this kits failings? I think it'd be an interesting read.
Perhaps you missed the part where I linked 5 threads on the subject on the first page...
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