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K&N or TRD air filters. Worth it?

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Old 01-21-2013, 08:21 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janster View Post
I would doubt their own theory *dirtier they get the better filtration* as that just goes against all air filter common sense. Besides that - you probably won't see them advertise a dirty filter will give you the same airflow as a clean one, which....defeats their claims on both ends.



K&N's are for horsepower & more airflow (theoretically) and probably not a good idea for dusty conditions anyway.

I never saw dust past my filter when I cleaned it every 6 months. The dustier the conditions...the more often it should be cleaned. That's my story anyway, and I'm sticking to it.

Everyone else can make their own decisions based on the positive and/or the negative feedback.
They actually changed up their wording over the years. I know when I bought my last one 4 years ago it was stated differently. Sadly I no longer have the paperwork from back then. Here is the current claim:

"The dirt particles collected on the surface of a K&N element have little effect on air flow during much of its service life because there are no small holes to clog. Particles are stopped by layers of crisscrossed cotton fibers and held in suspension by the oil. As the filter begins to collect debris, an additional form of filter action begins to take place because air must first pass through the dirt particles trapped on the surface. That means a K&N air filter continues to exhibit high air flow throughout the life of the filter while it is accumulating dirt. So as dirt accumulates, the performance advantages of a K&N air filter can increase!"

Reference: http://www.knfilters.com/filter_facts.htm


Exactly....K&N claims their filters have tested no lower then 96% so it means 4% of the crud makes it past (worst case). No more for me, but I have a used one if anyone wants to buy it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by miniceptor86 View Post
More fuel for the fire!

I put the TRD CAI on my Tacoma almost as soon as I bought it new. 85K miles on it now. Just yesterday I did a little preventative maintenance, cleaned the filter, pulled mass air flow sensor, pulled the tube to the throttle body. Did the white glove test, actually white paper towel, on the front of the throttle body clean as a whistle, mass air flow sensor (never been cleaned) bright and shiny.

I have a K&N in my '86 500 Interceptor, been there since around 18K miles, now at 45K still is with in factory compression specs, no problems related to intake air dirt, air box is always clean, changed out carbs for the larger '84-85 versions at 42K, old carbs and intake boots clean inside. This on an engine that is very fragile compared to the GR1-FE and runs about close to a 1000 rpms per 10 miles an hour in 6th with factory final drive gearing.

160K on my '92 Ranger 4.0 K&N no engine problems related to dirt getting past the filter. 8 paper air filters in that mileage = reasonable=at least $80. $40 something for the K&N=I'm ahead if I don't look at my labor to clean and the minimal amount of oil.

Sorry your results varied.

Jim
Wix OE type paper filter #46888 Case of 6 shipped for $83.13 or $13.86 per unit.

Your price does not include the filter cleaner and oil so tack on another $25.00 to your costs.

Also I can swap my filter out in 5 minutes on the trail if it gets damaged or full of moisture or full of dust. You must wait hours for yours to dry after cleaning before you can even oil it and that can not be done on the trail unless you carry a kitchen sink with you
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:50 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by XXXX View Post

Also I can swap my filter out in 5 minutes on the trail if it gets damaged or full of moisture or full of dust. You must wait hours for yours to dry after cleaning before you can even oil it and that can not be done on the trail unless you carry a kitchen sink with you
Anyone with a K&N can carry a spare filter - just as you do. So - they can change it out in 5 minutes also. I kept my OEM filter as a spare.
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:57 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janster View Post
Anyone with a K&N can carry a spare filter - just as you do. So - they can change it out in 5 minutes also. I kept my OEM filter as a spare.
Yea, but you have to buy 2 K&N's to swap them out for the same filter.

How are you swapping in a used old filter? Isn't it used and old? Then you wait for the K&N to dry and re-install that? So you have to actually do 2 swaps for each cleaning? I know I used to hate waiting for the dam filter to dry so I could drive.

I get what your saying.

Just breaking stones as usual.
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:24 AM   #25
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I'm torn . . . I hear/read the negative comments on K&N filters - especially in the motorcycle world. I personally would not run one on my Suzuki DR-650 because I gave it the opened-up "air box mod" and the bike sees its fair share of off road. However, I currently have a TRD gen 1 CAI on my 4.0L V6 Tacoma and that filter is pretty much the same as a conical K&N. I cleaned my throttle body, MAF sensor, and CAI intake tube about 6 months ago and they were all very clean upstream of the throttle body butterfly before I even touched them with cleaners (downstream - on the backside of the butterfly and inside the intake cover -was a slightly different story . . . an oil catch can is now on the mod list). I've been thinking about taking the TRD CAI off and going back to the stock intake/filter simply to see if I can get better MPG - not for the sake of supposed better filtration over the conical cotton media TRD filter (since my own experience with the TRD filter, and a Volant CAI/filter prior to that, has been fine thus far in approx. 6 years / 45,000 miles). However, how can I ignore the abundance of negative feedback and user-beware warnings associated with the permanent filters?
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:55 AM   #26
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Sorry, different uses, I'm not on the trail, no need to swap out for me. The $25 for cleaner/oil has lasted me 10+ years so hardly a factor.

This debate can go on and on I happen to have had good results using a gauze type filter and will go on using them. Like I said, sorry your results have not been the same. I'm sure that if I were off roading and needing to change my filters more often than I do the convenience of a paper filter would be appreciated.

I personally don't mind cleaning or having the vehicle laid up while it is drying for a couple of hours. Plenty of primping to do on BluTaco during that time. Naps are good also.

Jim
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:44 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXX View Post
Yea, but you have to buy 2 K&N's to swap them out for the same filter.

How are you swapping in a used old filter? Isn't it used and old? Then you wait for the K&N to dry and re-install that? So you have to actually do 2 swaps for each cleaning? I know I used to hate waiting for the dam filter to dry so I could drive.

I get what your saying.

Just breaking stones as usual.
Who said you had to buy a second K&N? Buy a bobo cheapo air filter as a spare and clean the K&N when you get home from the trails.

My stock filter came out within the first year. I still have it and use it when I clean the AFE. It's still pretty clean
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:39 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janster View Post
K&N's can and will filter as well as anything when its kept CLEAN and OILED properly. The oil is what catches the fine particles. If the oil gets over-penetrated with dust/dirt...it can't filter properly anymore and thus allowing dust to get past it. I've owned K&N's in several vehicles. I've washed them twice a year to keep them properly cleaned. Any oiled filter will act the same way....they're not something you can throw in your truck and expect it to work for long periods without maintaining and cleaning. If you over-oil them, can also cause problems.

So - theoretically....if you leave the K&N filter in your truck too long without cleaning it, it will allow dust past it. You can't blame K&N for that.

If you can't regularly maintain a K&N - then perhaps people shouldn't buy one. And yes...I stopped buying them because I don't want to clean it every 6 months. I bought an AFE and I clean it once a year.
That's funny because it is 180 degrees opposite what K&N claims IN WRITING. It is also counter to physics.

They recommend cleaning the filters no more often than every 20,000 miles because the dirt piling onto the filter media improves filtration.

Think about it. A clogged filter becomes more restrictive. If a clogged filter is going to pass dirt through, then it would pass that same dirt through when it is perfectly clean.
A 50 micron mesh is going to pass a 49 micron particle and block a 51 micron particle.
Stack a bunch of 51-100 micron particles on top of a 50 micron mesh and it's not going to suddenly start passing 51 micron particles, it just becomes more restrictive. Clogged air filters don't go into bypass like clogged oil filters, they just choke the engine.


It is well documented all over the net (and not ONLY by Amsoil dealer hype, also look up "Spicer" who did an independent review on his own flowbench) that OEM filters are the most effective. They are among the more restrictive, but that's how filters work. Less restriction can be accomplished in only two ways: Increase filter area, or decrease filtration efficiency. K&N, AFE, and other aftermarket drop-in filters do not increase filter area, so the only way they can work is by not filtering as well.

Restriction? How much improvement do you need? The stock intake can flow more than any normally aspirated 4.0 can draw. We simply don't NEED to reduce intake restriction, and dyno reports consistently show no significant improvement.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:48 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XXXX View Post
Also I can swap my filter out in 5 minutes on the trail if it gets damaged or full of moisture or full of dust. You must wait hours for yours to dry after cleaning before you can even oil it and that can not be done on the trail unless you carry a kitchen sink with you
Exactly why I had a pair of filters for my motorcycle, both my Vulcan and dirtbike (dirtbike ran oiled foam).

When it was time to clean, I'd just pull a clean one out of a zip-lock that it was stored in and move the dirty one into the cleaning rotation.
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:00 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
That's funny because it is 180 degrees opposite what K&N claims IN WRITING. It is also counter to physics.

They recommend cleaning the filters no more often than every 20,000 miles because the dirt piling onto the filter media improves filtration.

Think about it. A clogged filter becomes more restrictive. If a clogged filter is going to pass dirt through, then it would pass that same dirt through when it is perfectly clean.
A 50 micron mesh is going to pass a 49 micron particle and block a 51 micron particle.
Stack a bunch of 51-100 micron particles on top of a 50 micron mesh and it's not going to suddenly start passing 51 micron particles, it just becomes more restrictive. Clogged air filters don't go into bypass like clogged oil filters, they just choke the engine.


It is well documented all over the net (and not ONLY by Amsoil dealer hype, also look up "Spicer" who did an independent review on his own flowbench) that OEM filters are the most effective. They are among the more restrictive, but that's how filters work. Less restriction can be accomplished in only two ways: Increase filter area, or decrease filtration efficiency. K&N, AFE, and other aftermarket drop-in filters do not increase filter area, so the only way they can work is by not filtering as well.

Restriction? How much improvement do you need? The stock intake can flow more than any normally aspirated 4.0 can draw. We simply don't NEED to reduce intake restriction, and dyno reports consistently show no significant improvement.
So, how many K&N's have you actually used and have experience with?

If they are so horrible (according to your arguments), then why are they still in business?
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Old 01-21-2013, 04:22 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janster View Post
So, how many K&N's have you actually used and have experience with?
I have them on my motorcycle... stuck with them because of the aftermarket intake design. I ran a drop-in on my '94 Toyota pickup. Traded it at 225k, it burned a quart or more every 3000.

And if you'd read the fucking thread, you would see that I've already stated my personal experience with them.
Quote:
If they are so horrible (according to your arguments), then why are they still in business?
There are a lot of shitty products that sell quite well for any number of reasons.

K&N and other cleanable filters have their legitimate use.... in racing applications where performance is a priority over durability.
If your engine only has to last 500 or 1000 miles between rebuilds, the only reason you run an air filter at all is to keep out debris that is large enough to cause immediate damage.
You don't see air filters on dragsters.

But people are sheep and will buy whatever the marketing machine can persuade influential groups is "cool". Those stickers on race vehicles? Those drivers/teams are not using those products. They are simply being paid to put that label on their car or truck. Richard Petty did not use STP fuel or oil treatment, but Richard Petty sold a LOT of what is literally nothing more than a heavy weight oil.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:14 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post

And if you'd read the fucking thread, you would see that I've already stated my personal experience with them.

There are a lot of shitty products that sell quite well for any number of reasons.

K&N and other cleanable filters have their legitimate use.... in racing applications where performance is a priority over durability.
If your engine only has to last 500 or 1000 miles between rebuilds, the only reason you run an air filter at all is to keep out debris that is large enough to cause immediate damage.
You don't see air filters on dragsters.

But people are sheep and will buy whatever the marketing machine can persuade influential groups is "cool". Those stickers on race vehicles? Those drivers/teams are not using those products. They are simply being paid to put that label on their car or truck. Richard Petty did not use STP fuel or oil treatment, but Richard Petty sold a LOT of what is literally nothing more than a heavy weight oil.
Really? The F bomb? Was that really necessary?

I read the thread and your ramblings. I've owned 4-5 K&N's over the years. I just wanted to see exactly how much experience you had with them. Obviously, you don't hate them that much since you still run them in your motorcycle?

Does that make you one of the sheep?
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:56 PM   #33
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I use them on the Vulcan because I'm stuck with them due to the design of the intake.
I use them understanding the damage to the engine that I am doing and accepting that. It's a V-Twin, it burns oil anyways.

I do not use them on my dirtbike or my Tacoma.
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:42 PM   #34
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Oh Gosh the F bomb!!!!!!!!
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