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Plastic melting on Tacoma for no reason...

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Old 03-23-2013, 10:20 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by BradyT88 View Post
Holy shit! If it is reflective windows doing it, then the only thing I can think of is do a Satoshi grill and get some sort of metal mirror covers.
Holly Crap! that sucks dude! maybe you can make a Satoshi for your mirrors too. J/k.
Just a thought but what kind of cleaning supplies do you use on your truck? I know there are some cleaners that arn't supposed to be used on plastic. I'm sure there are some nasty chemicals out there that would do something like that. Not saying your using them but in the pics it almost looks like a chemical break down of the plastic.

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Old 03-23-2013, 09:44 PM   #42
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I don't see where the windows are hitting my truck. I parked there today specifically and went out a few times to check for a reflection, there's a tree in the way but I'm sure it gets through.

I've never washed it myself. I've only had her 3 months and been taking it to a professional car wash here in Vegas where they detail it and everything. Can't imagine they have a bad chemical they're using.

FYI: My Chevy Colorado sat in the same exact spot the entire summer with much hotter temps, and had zero issues.
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:58 PM   #43
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Cory, mine happened at night time and in a secure area. I wash my truck at home, so not sure if its the car wash chemicals. It will always remain a mystery.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:16 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARKDESMO View Post
It's easy to revise your statements after you look like a fool, a lot harder to admit you were wrong in the first place and you have proven that. Nice try.
What did I revise in my statement(s)? Be specific please.

My opinion did evolve as I read more about the issue, as I had never heard of the Low E Glass windows causing any issues. That is before I started looking and educating myself more on the problem.

You are the one that is stuck in your own opinion that it Must be an issue with the ABS Plastic and Toyota rather than reading factual articles about what is really going on with these Low E Windows and burning houses cars etc ...

Who looks like a fool? ...
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:24 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyh View Post
As has been shown in various posts;

1.) It is not a Toyota Problem.
2.) It is not an ABS Plastic problem.
3.) It affects all makes of vehicles and houses and ...
4.) It is a problem caused by the Low E windows acting like a magnifying glass on the plastic.

It would be like parking right up close to a huge fire, then complaining to Toyota because the plastic melted.

Your claims of Toyota using cheap ABS Plastic is totally unfounded.
Heh? first of all, I didn't claim anything about toyota parts. I said that if multiple people are having the same problem they need to report it so that it can be investigated. Do you know anything about injection molding problems that are common in the industry? Do you know what a durometer is? Have you ever even heard of shore hardness? I hear people talking about melting point and glass transition and making it quite clear they think until the polmer reaches a magical point that they can't deform which is bunk.

Also if it's "been shown" in these threads that it's windows fault(which it may well be..) then it's also been shown that it's a blowtorch bandit because it's been brought up just as many times. Until someone has a 100% answer, why not do what a responsible owner should and report the problem?
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:26 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by DunhamAll View Post
You're missing the point. Vandalism carries a signature with it. Whether that be me spray painting an alleyway giving a message that this is my hood, or keying your car to say F you because we got in an argument. Vandalism, in general, usually carries a message. That message would be missed (re:lost) by melting the OP's mirrors. If it were an act, it doesn't carry the signature of vandalism as it leaves us all questioning what actually caused the problem. Yes, this is a simplified answer, but there is zero logic as to why someone would melt some mirrors over a deliberate and obvious action like throwing a brick through a window.

CNet did an article about energy efficient windows causing the melting of siding on adjacent houses in suburbia. there was also a story floating around about some lady threatening suit because her Prius melted in the same way as OP's from energy efficient windows. (i find this ironic that the go green initiatives are attacking each other!). I'm going with this as the cause, mainly because I can't find my tinfoil hat to put on and start blaming aliens, vandals, and other third parties.
Not missing any point & wasn't asking for definition of vandalism or some "message" attached to the act of....

It's either a weird phenom. or someone did it if no other explanation explains it

[QUOTE=MARKDESMO;6628231]Look I just read all the stupid reasons that posters thought what was happening, OR NOT HAPPENING, to the plastic parts; see this recent thread:
http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/2nd...w-mirrors.html

It is the sun, it probably is the reflection off glass, but let all other reasons go. This guy lives in Vegas my car was either in SoCal or Waco TX, all 3 places hotter than hell with lots of sun...............................[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARKDESMO View Post
Give me a break, "I can't park my Tacoma in the sun or it will melt, sorry my pussy truck needs parking TLC"
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Originally Posted by MARKDESMO View Post
Add Jimmyh to the list of poster that are guessing, here are a few of his other comments on the subject:

#1
"The sun did not do that.

Neither Southern California or Waco Texas get up over 212 Degrees F even in the worst summer sun. That was exposed to something very hot. Notice it didn't melt all over, mainly in one area. It looks like someone used a propane torch on it.

I have never seen any ABS Plastic melt in that way from the sun"

#2
I agree. The ABS Plastic doesn't reach the Glass Transition Stage until it gets to ~ 105 degrees C or 212 Degrees F. There would be other damage to the vehicle if the reflection from a window were causing it. That mirror looks burned like a torch or some other concentrated heat source was applied just to that area of the mirror.

Gotta throw the old "Bull Shit Flag" on this story.

#3
Is there any damage in the area besides the mirror? At 212 degrees on the mirror to cause this as if from a reflection there would almost certainly be some paint damage etc somewhere in the vicinity. It appears to be concentrated in just that area.

See my point?

#4
Toyota uses the same ABS Thermoplastic that all mfgs use. No one on this ( or any other forum) has a crystal ball to tell you what happened to your mirror housings. We do not have enough information.

What we do know is:
1. Your mirror housing(s) got burned. Seems concentrated in one area.
2. ABS Plastic reaches glass transition at 212 F.
3. The sun doesn't get this hot on its own ( unless through a magnifying glass etc...)
4. If this was a common phenomenon it would be all over this forum ( and all other Toyota forums) in spades.

jimmyh, you are no expert, don't post like one, show some proof quit guessing and maybe I will change my mind.

Desmo
Jeezus , whats your damage ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by File IFR View Post
Jimmy is right.

Mark, what's up with getting in Jimmy's face on this???

You suffered the same problem, so you should know what the cause is from your own thread on this.
x2, quit eating paint chips dude.....
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:31 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyh View Post
What did I revise in my statement(s)? Be specific please.

My opinion did evolve as I read more about the issue, as I had never heard of the Low E Glass windows causing any issues. That is before I started looking and educating myself more on the problem.

You are the one that is stuck in your own opinion that it Must be an issue with the ABS Plastic and Toyota rather than reading factual articles about what is really going on with these Low E Windows and burning houses cars etc ...

Who looks like a fool? ...
It's your tone I think that's doing it. Call people fools, know nothing etc when we are in the exact same boat as you.. trying to figure something out that doesn't have a clear cause. Or at least aren't as satisfied with the "well, there's windows in the world that can cause this, so everyone shut up about this, I've got my answer and I'll shout down anyone who questions it."
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:42 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majorhavok View Post
It's your tone I think that's doing it. Call people fools, know nothing etc when we are in the exact same boat as you.. trying to figure something out that doesn't have a clear cause. Or at least aren't as satisfied with the "well, there's windows in the world that can cause this, so everyone shut up about this, I've got my answer and I'll shout down anyone who questions it."
You may be injecting a tone into my typed statements. I do not have a "tone" as that is not possible in a typed message. I was merely trying to throw out some facts rather than being stuck on the " Inferior ABS Plastics Theory ". My position evolved during the discussion as I stated above. I never intended to flame anyone. If your feelings were hurt from anything I posted then maybe you should not go into internet public forums.

Do you know how common Low E Windows are these days? Very Common. Especially in hotter climates.

Please show me where I called anyone a " fool " or any other name.

Good luck, I'm done.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:51 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmyh View Post
You may be injecting a tone into my typed statements. I do not have a "tone" as that is not possible in a typed message. I was merely trying to throw out some facts rather than being stuck on the " Inferior ABS Plastics Theory ". My position evolved during the discussion as I stated above. I never intended to flame anyone. If your feelings were hurt from anything I posted then maybe you should not go into internet public forums.

Do you know how common Low E Windows are these days? Very Common. Especially in hotter climates.

Please show me where I called anyone a " fool " or any other name.

Good luck, I'm done.
Your post was way too civilized. I had some good smacktalk ready, but I guess that was a waste. lol

Fair enough, my thought is still that ABS is a cheap/low temp thermoplastic. I doubt the energy efficient windows are going away, if anything they will likely become more common. The more people who have this problem and report it will likely cause the manufacturers to start spec'ing out different polymers with better thermal characteristics. Some of the glass filled nylons would make a great grill/mirror material... just more expensive.

I think I'd pay a few more bucks for parts that don't melt if I don't park in my garage or parking structure.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:23 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majorhavok View Post
Your post was way too civilized. I had some good smacktalk ready, but I guess that was a waste. lol

Fair enough, my thought is still that ABS is a cheap/low temp thermoplastic. I doubt the energy efficient windows are going away, if anything they will likely become more common. The more people who have this problem and report it will likely cause the manufacturers to start spec'ing out different polymers with better thermal characteristics. Some of the glass filled nylons would make a great grill/mirror material... just more expensive.

I think I'd pay a few more bucks for parts that don't melt if I don't park in my garage or parking structure.
Speculation in the other thread makes perfect sense, especially seeing photos of the reflection pattern these windows makes.

They are made at higher elevations and assembled without capillary tubes that allow pressure between the panels to equalize.
When they are brought down to lower elevations, the glass pulls in, effectively forming a very efficient parabolic reflector.

The sun does not have to reach 212 on it's own... the bowing of the glass concentrates it and it goes much higher.

Toyota's ABS parts are ABS. ABS has specific qualities, which include it's embrittlement temperature, and it's melting temperature. ABS is ABS... it's not a matter of Toyota using "cheap" ABS.

The fault is with the design of the windows not having capillary tubes.
You are right. Low-E windows are not going anywhere and are going to be more and more common. This issue needs to be addressed at the Federal level in the specifications for low-E windows before it starts a major brush fire.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:40 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
Speculation in the other thread makes perfect sense, especially seeing photos of the reflection pattern these windows makes.

They are made at higher elevations and assembled without capillary tubes that allow pressure between the panels to equalize.
When they are brought down to lower elevations, the glass pulls in, effectively forming a very efficient parabolic reflector.

The sun does not have to reach 212 on it's own... the bowing of the glass concentrates it and it goes much higher.

Toyota's ABS parts are ABS. ABS has specific qualities, which include it's embrittlement temperature, and it's melting temperature. ABS is ABS... it's not a matter of Toyota using "cheap" ABS.

The fault is with the design of the windows not having capillary tubes.
You are right. Low-E windows are not going anywhere and are going to be more and more common. This issue needs to be addressed at the Federal level in the specifications for low-E windows before it starts a major brush fire.
So there are three different trains of thought here. There are the litigious people who will just sue everyone and let the court sort out who owes them damages. (I'm not in this group...)

Then there are the liberal big government types that look at a window manufactured.. in Denver or some other high altitude place.. Fail completely to understand that these windows are sealed with argon or other inert gas and CANNOT be open to adjust to outside ambient pressure or they will be fundamentally flawed in other ways... So they demand the government to step in on this issue, build up some department of window pane standards, development, implementation, regulation and monitoring department or some such crapola and everyone's taxes go up, and a few less car parts get melted, but window prices go up for certain, and the problem won't go away completely because government oversight isn't 100% and there are always loopholes. (I'm not in this group either..)

Or there are the free market types who buy something with a set of expectations and if it doesn't meet them, they voice them to the manufacturer. If the manufacturer sees what worked for the last xx years is no longer working for it's customers, it can change to a DIFFERENT PLASTIC than ABS to solve the problem without raising taxes or big frivolous class action lawsuits where you get $0.12 for your melted parts and the lawyers each get $120 million. (I'm part of this free market group..)
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:31 AM   #52
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Different plastic on your Toyota is not going to prevent your neighbor's window from burning your house down.

This is a manufacturing problem with the windows, not the truck.


And do not EVER refer to me as a "liberal big government type" again.
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:29 PM   #53
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Man this thread went south. Can't we all get along haha.

and Rich, the interesting thing is why am I not seeing burn marks in my paint and such... only the plastic? Just a thought.
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:40 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xguntherc View Post
and Rich, the interesting thing is why am I not seeing burn marks in my paint and such... only the plastic? Just a thought.
The paint is on metal... metal is a good conductor of heat so the body sinks the heat away from the small heated area.
Plastic is a poor conductor of heat, so the heating will remain localized, and will also not "shed" into the air as readily.

I agree that I would expect to see some evidence of damage to the paint, and there may be long term.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:42 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
Different plastic on your Toyota is not going to prevent your neighbor's window from burning your house down.

This is a manufacturing problem with the windows, not the truck.


And do not EVER refer to me as a "liberal big government type" again.
Uhm, I only spoke about which group *I* was in.

I'm actually quite happy to hear disgust for that "type" I mentioned. Especially in LA.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:48 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majorhavok View Post
Uhm, I only spoke about which group *I* was in.
It was a safe assumption, given that I had suggested that the Fed step in on this issue.

And there is likely already some office entitled "Bureau of High-E Windows" given that there would likely be some kind of standards to be met before the High-E claim can be made.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:08 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
It was a safe assumption, given that I had suggested that the Fed step in on this issue.

And there is likely already some office entitled "Bureau of High-E Windows" given that there would likely be some kind of standards to be met before the High-E claim can be made.
Seems you are right. Department of Energy and Energystar.gov already outline specifications for window performance.

Most likely this will eventually be a class action lawsuit.

The low-E window wiki notes this, so it must be pretty widespread.

From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_emi..._low-E_windows

Criticism of low-E windows
Since Low-E glass reflects more sunlight, it has been observed that the extra reflectivity combined with any concavity in the glass would effectively turn the glass into a concave mirror, concentrating sunlight onto other objects such as cars, or the siding on adjacent houses, melting plastic or vinyl [4] [5] This problem is exacerbated by dual pane windows filled with Argon gas. Over time the Argon permeates the window edge seal leading to low internal pressure. This in turn serves to force the center of the panes inward forming a concave exterior "mirror." Even uncoated glass panes can produce high temperatures at the focus of such windows.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:17 PM   #58
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Location: Peoples Republic of Caulifournia
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,260
majorhavok's Tacoma Gallery
Check this out too:

http://www.nachi.org/low-e-windows.htm

In the medical device industry, I have worked with lubrizol (among others) that make these additives for various polymers to make them more robust to thermal influence.
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