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Old 09-12-2012, 05:13 AM   #1
alwaysat8k [OP] alwaysat8k is offline
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12' clutch

My 12' 5 lug taco has about 10k miles. Ive pulled a few loads of dirt in the bed and moved a uhaul trailer (all within the vehicles prescribed limits). Im starting to notice my clutch engages only after my pedal is almost completely let out.

I do not remember my 2010 4cyl prerunner having the same issue.

Ive never owned an automatic car and I do not drive spirited (definitely not with 159hp). I consider myself pretty good with shifting smooth and not riding the clutch.

I plan on taking it into the dealer shortly due to the warranty, but I want to have as much knowledge as possible beforehand. I am aware of the TSB for the 05-11 models. I would imagine that they fixed the issue in 2012...

Does anyone else have the same issue with the 2012?
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Old 09-12-2012, 07:19 AM   #2
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I'm not so sure that they would have entirely fixed the problem for 2012 models. That is, if there actually is a problem with yours.

You haven't mentioned any slipping, only the level of the release point. This might imply an issue with the cylinders rather than the clutch itself.

As far as the "bad clutch" problem that the 4-cyl MT's have been subject to from day 1, it is a supplier quality control problem. From what I've read, Toyota is using two suppliers for clutches, one made in Mexico, "LUK", and the other made in Japan "AISIN". If you look at the part numbers, it would seem that there have been SEVERAL revisions to the LUK parts used. There are also multiple TSB's indicating different points of failure in the LUK designs, and in fact, there is even one indicating a failure in the AISIN parts. The AISIN failures have not been catastrophic, rather it was something about the damper springs in the clutch disk, so this failure would just cause engagement chatter rather than slipping or explosion as could be experienced with LUK failures.

The two failure modes of LUK clutches that I'm aware of have related to (1) the quality of the friction material, that it can in some cases be stripped off of the disk, and (2) the spring force of the pressure plate. Once the clutch break-in is completed and the surfaces of the flywheel and pressure plate are completely smooth, the spring force of the pressure plate may be inadequate to hold the full amount of torque produced by the engine, leading to the clutch slipping.

I am not aware of any failure mode of the clutch or pressure plate that could explain a changing release point. The clutch should adjust automatically to disk wear by way of the piston's motion in the slave cylinder, very much how disk brakes adjust to pad wear in order to keep your braking consistent without needing adjustment.

Given what you have described, I would suspect clutch cylinders. The good news is that the transmission doesn't need to be removed to diagnose/repair this. Check with your dealership since you are still under warranty. If the clutch release point is too high, it could indicate that it may be resisting a complete release. This could eventually lead to slipping if this is actually the case.

The last thing I can suggest, is that the parts have been revised between 2010 and 2012, and you stand a 50% chance that the clutch is from a different manufacturer altogether, so the different feel of the clutch may be quite appropriate and nothing to worry about. In any case, it would be prudent to check with the dealership and have your concerns documented for future reference in case it does become a problem.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:42 AM   #3
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While I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I have seen bad pressure plates cause the sensation he is describing. I am interested in the information you have found on LUK clutches. I have installed many of them in customer vehicles and have had no complaints from any of them. where did you find this information at so I can check into it? Or is this just from the older manufacture LUK clutches?

As for replacement clutches I installed a Banhauf Stage 3 clutch kit in my Tacoma, and couldn't be happier.
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:02 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I'm not so sure that they would have entirely fixed the problem for 2012 models. That is, if there actually is a problem with yours.

You haven't mentioned any slipping, only the level of the release point. This might imply an issue with the cylinders rather than the clutch itself.

As far as the "bad clutch" problem that the 4-cyl MT's have been subject to from day 1, it is a supplier quality control problem. From what I've read, Toyota is using two suppliers for clutches, one made in Mexico, "LUK", and the other made in Japan "AISIN". If you look at the part numbers, it would seem that there have been SEVERAL revisions to the LUK parts used. There are also multiple TSB's indicating different points of failure in the LUK designs, and in fact, there is even one indicating a failure in the AISIN parts. The AISIN failures have not been catastrophic, rather it was something about the damper springs in the clutch disk, so this failure would just cause engagement chatter rather than slipping or explosion as could be experienced with LUK failures.

The two failure modes of LUK clutches that I'm aware of have related to (1) the quality of the friction material, that it can in some cases be stripped off of the disk, and (2) the spring force of the pressure plate. Once the clutch break-in is completed and the surfaces of the flywheel and pressure plate are completely smooth, the spring force of the pressure plate may be inadequate to hold the full amount of torque produced by the engine, leading to the clutch slipping.

I am not aware of any failure mode of the clutch or pressure plate that could explain a changing release point. The clutch should adjust automatically to disk wear by way of the piston's motion in the slave cylinder, very much how disk brakes adjust to pad wear in order to keep your braking consistent without needing adjustment.

Given what you have described, I would suspect clutch cylinders. The good news is that the transmission doesn't need to be removed to diagnose/repair this. Check with your dealership since you are still under warranty. If the clutch release point is too high, it could indicate that it may be resisting a complete release. This could eventually lead to slipping if this is actually the case.

The last thing I can suggest, is that the parts have been revised between 2010 and 2012, and you stand a 50% chance that the clutch is from a different manufacturer altogether, so the different feel of the clutch may be quite appropriate and nothing to worry about. In any case, it would be prudent to check with the dealership and have your concerns documented for future reference in case it does become a problem.
Thanks for your help. I had read the TSB about the two different clutches. The cylinder to push the fluid in makes sense. I just dont understand the fact that if they had a TSB out, why the hell would they put the same clutch back in that was defective? Well, I am going to take it in as soon as I get a minute and before I install my lift and wheel set up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaToy1997 View Post
While I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I have seen bad pressure plates cause the sensation he is describing. I am interested in the information you have found on LUK clutches. I have installed many of them in customer vehicles and have had no complaints from any of them. where did you find this information at so I can check into it? Or is this just from the older manufacture LUK clutches?

As for replacement clutches I installed a Banhauf Stage 3 clutch kit in my Tacoma, and couldn't be happier.
Pressure plate makes sense too.. I need to take it in. I will update once I get a word back.
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Old 09-14-2012, 09:55 PM   #5
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The pressure plate is what is too weak for the 2tr-fe application on the luk part. The fingers are not strong enough to handle the load.
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Old 09-15-2012, 09:19 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jassco View Post
The pressure plate is what is too weak for the 2tr-fe application on the luk part. The fingers are not strong enough to handle the load.
And that is what has surprised me. I have installed 2 LUK clutch systems recently. One was installed in a Tacoma (2nd gen) and I have had no concerns/complaints on them.
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:15 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaToy1997 View Post
And that is what has surprised me. I have installed 2 LUK clutch systems recently. One was installed in a Tacoma (2nd gen) and I have had no concerns/complaints on them.
Given the TSB I'm sure they have revised the parts. The factory builds before the TSB seem to be the culprits.
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:31 AM   #8
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i had a luk in my 2010, i went to the dealer for my throwout bearing and (clutch issues wich they said was fine at the time) and they said they woiuld replace the T/B under waranty. Since they were already dropping the trans i bought a new asian plate and disk ( type B ) never let them sell u type A! A IS A LUK!, Anyways they put the new clutch in and there is a huge diffrence, The luk would slip, chatter and feel weird when i was easing the clutch out, especially on hills my whole truck would shake. You prob have the luk, there still putting them in trucks.



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Old 09-15-2012, 07:39 PM   #9
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How can you tell which one you have?
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:01 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaToy1997 View Post
While I agree with a lot of what you are saying, I have seen bad pressure plates cause the sensation he is describing. I am interested in the information you have found on LUK clutches. I have installed many of them in customer vehicles and have had no complaints from any of them. where did you find this information at so I can check into it? Or is this just from the older manufacture LUK clutches?

As for replacement clutches I installed a Banhauf Stage 3 clutch kit in my Tacoma, and couldn't be happier.
Of course, it could be an actual clutch problem. The point I was making is only that it may not be. In case it isn't, it would be premature to pull the transmission before looking over the other possibilities, which are much easier to deal with.

There is actually a lot of information about the LUK clutches, but realize that it applies specifically and ONLY to Tacoma 4-cyl 2005+. The most obvious being simply the number of revisions made to the parts (updated part numbers). Another source of information is the wording of the service bulletins, which say very specifically that all replacement parts are to be AISIN parts. If not wholly conclusive, this certainly implies that they are aware that the problems can be associated with the non-AISIN parts. Finally, there are the results posted on the internet regarding what comes out of a truck after any kind of clutch failure. Absolutely every report of low mileage clutch failures where the failed components are identified by manufacturer, identify LUK parts.

Now you know certainly that given component revisions, changes in manufacturing process, and simple quality control, components from a single manufacturer can vary. In fact, I would be very shocked if the actual low mileage failure rate of LUK clutches even reached 10%. Most, I'm sure, last a much more respectable amount of mileage. By low mileage failure, I mean something in the range of 15 to 25 thousand kilometers. And yes, I'm sure that there are some AISIN clutches that fail with low mileage as well. However, it does look very much like that failure rate for LUK clutches is FAR higher than AISIN.

Mine came from factory with a LUK clutch. It failed at 15,000 km and was replaced with an AISIN CTX-107 under warranty/TSB. Symptom was weak engagement and slipping under high torque -- it would let go while climbing a highway hill in 4th gear under full throttle. The friction disk didn't show any significant wear as it would have had it failed due to wear caused by my own incompetence. The warranty failure report was something to the effect of "clutch slipping due to weak pressure plate". I've put over 35,000 km on the AISIN and find its engagement to remain very firm and confident. During the whole warranty process, the dealership was in full communications with me, they found the TSB indicating the AISIN parts to be installed and ordered them before dropping the transmission. When they finally took it apart, they called me up and asked me "guess what we found in there?". My response was "you found a LUK clutch and pressure plate." -- "How did you know???"... I did my homework and knew exactly what to expect.

It is also worth noting that the AISIN parts have undergone a revision in the last year and a bit as well. Specifically, the pressure plate has been changed from an AISIN CTX-106 to a CTX-107. The CTX-107 seems to be intended for a higher power application, but meets the same physical dimensions, so is more or less interchangeable. Both of these clutches have been in use for years, the CTX-106 was originally matched with the 3RZ-FE, the CTX-107 was matched with 5VZ-FE. That difference is 40 hp and 43 footpounds. The current 4-cyl is power/torque wise, somewhere between those two, yet was equipped with the weaker clutch parts. Nevertheless, I haven't heard of any failures of the CTX-106. This part change may be more a "f**k-it" move or a matter of ceasing production of the CTX-106, than of an actual necessary upgrade. This part change could also be simply to address consumer confidence. Getting the consumer to think of it as a "heavy duty" clutch can surely go a long way in making them feel better about the vehicle after a low mileage clutch failure.
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Old 09-17-2012, 04:06 PM   #12
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Good information to know. I did install a LUK in a customer's 2007 2.7L Tacoma. Fortunately he hasn't had any issues.
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Old 09-19-2012, 04:14 PM   #13
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Well after taking it in today they said "could not duplicate symptoms". They did remove my slave cylinder for the tsb to check for rust, which none was indicated. the service manager was honest and knowledgeable about the issue. He stated he did drive the truck himself and he wished that he could put a new clutch in (would provide them money). Also, he said that its documented that i took my truck in and that any other dealer would be able to see that it was as well. I guess only time will tell and i will keep the invoice on record for anything else. The only issue is, i am planning on lifting it soon and if the clutch ever does go out i'm betting they will void my warranty.
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Old 09-20-2012, 06:33 AM   #15
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If you want to be able to keep the good fight (legit) with a lift modification, you'll have to calculate the difference in the wheel circumference and regear to compensate such that your effective gearing is no higher than factory. This way they couldn't reasonably pin it on the added load to the clutch, since there wouldn't be any.
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:25 AM   #16
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Luk clutches used to be really good, their quality must have really tanked past few years. I haven't had any clutch issues with my 11 yet and have towed 2580lbs with it across the country and back, no problem.
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:53 AM   #17
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Alwaysat8k, I have 2012 Access Cab 2.7L 4WD manual that I use for commuting and hunting, and the clutch started slipping at about 10k miles. The dealer first told me that there was nothing that they can do because it is a wear item and there isn't a TSB for 2012 (YET), so the stink I laid down was so furious and they are fixing it at a loss for them, mainly to save a customer. Here is the email I sent to the Service Manager:

Mr. Cortis,

First off thank you for reading my (long) email, I know you and your Service Team are always busy. The reason for me contacting you unfortunately is about a major problem I am having with my new truck and I figured you were the guy to talk to (I did contact Jason Cartin last week and he said he would get back, but it was Thanksgiving and all). I purchased a '12 4 cylinder 4WD manual Tacoma the beginning of June this year from your dealership and it now has 10372 miles on it. I have driven from Charleston to Norfolk, Va about 4 times now, so most of the miles are on I-95. I bought the truck new and in the powertrain configuration because being in the Navy, my next 5 years will involve a lot of driving from Groton to Maine to Norfolk, I am also renting out my house in Charleston so trips to the Lowcountry is also inevitable. I also purchased my first Toyota because I did not want to have any major problems with my vehicle (I also bought the Hendrick 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty) for at least the next 5 years or so. About 3 weeks ago I noticed that in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear the clutch slips under acceleration, so I started asking around about what was going on because I have never (out of owning 4 manual transmission vehicles in the last 15 years) experienced a slipping clutch. My friend has basically the same truck as me but a 2010 at 12k. He had the same problem, and his clutch was fixed under warranty/ TSB 0066-11. Evidently there was a problem with quality control with the LUK company friction plates and they wore out fast (about 10K miles) and they were subsequently replaced by the TSB with a type B (Aisin) clutch. I learned that the TSB only covers 2005-2011 Tacomas, which has me a little confused because my truck is having the SAME symptoms noted in the TSB 0066-11! I can say with absolute certainty that am very proficient at driving a manual transmission (I will go on a test drive with anyone to prove my proficiency), have been since 1997. My first vehicle was a 1971 GMC Sierra with a 3-on-the-tree! I have had a Jeep and 2 Mustangs with manuals as well. I have NEVER replaced a clutch in a vehicle I bought used and drove for years thereafter. My mother-in-law has PT Cruiser with 83k with the original clutch! So you can see I am a little perturbed, why is my truck's clutch failing? I find it a little too coincidental that the entire 2nd gen Tacoma 2.7L with manuals (except for 2012) are covered by a TSB for clutch failure, whose symptoms my truck is having. I have not had the truck broken down to have the clutch replaced yet, mainly because I am furious that a brand new Toyota is having a major problem at 10K! I know for a TSB to be developed a number of complaints have to be made, and I have no intention being a $1600 precedent (with out reimbursement). I know of a handful of people with the '12 Tacoma from my forum (TacomaWorld) that are having the same symptoms as me, and guys that have 2005-2011 Tacomas are telling us they had the same problem and it was fixed by the TSB, which only covers the models the have. So I know there are '12 Tacomas out there in my same boat. I also know the 2.7L manual is a rare model, with most chosing an automatic or V6, so complaints will be slow and not frequent until next year. But I refuse to give up (my nature) when I know I am right. I know clutches are like brakes and are not covered by warranties unless faulty, which I am sure my clutch is. I am dreading taking it in to the Toyota Dealer here in Norfolk because it is not a Hendrick dealer and their reputation is low due to the high volume of service. I do not want a quick evaluation by a technician, I would like a definitive evaluation on the clutch. Basically I do not want anyone else to have the same problem as me, maybe even nip a bad supplier in the bud to prevent future problems. I want my truck fixed, but also I would like to help y'all out in correcting a problem. If I need to come down to Charleston to your dealership I will, or I can go to Fayetteville, NC. I will gladly drive to get my truck fixed. I would also like my clutch replaced with the Aisin clutch components to prevent further premature wearing. I hate to say it, but if the clutch is deemed to be worn due to the operator then I will be getting rid of the truck with a bad taste in my mouth. I will not spend $1600 every 10K miles to get a clutch replaced with experienced operation.
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:07 PM   #18
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good luck the Asian is a much better clutch ive had no problems since i swpapped mine, fortunately im getting a 2013 auto this time around prob tomorrow it will be here, tired of the 1st to second gear clunk every time i shift, plus i want buckets, center console and the touchscreen
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Old 12-02-2012, 12:25 PM   #19
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Just fyi the weak component here is the pressure plate. The fingers to be exact.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:16 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norcaldude82 View Post
Alwaysat8k, I have 2012 Access Cab 2.7L 4WD manual that I use for commuting and hunting, and the clutch started slipping at about 10k miles. The dealer first told me that there was nothing that they can do because it is a wear item and there isn't a TSB for 2012 (YET), so the stink I laid down was so furious and they are fixing it at a loss for them, mainly to save a customer. Here is the email I sent to the Service Manager:

Mr. Cortis,

First off thank you for reading my (long) email, I know you and your Service Team are always busy. The reason for me contacting you unfortunately is about a major problem I am having with my new truck and I figured you were the guy to talk to (I did contact Jason Cartin last week and he said he would get back, but it was Thanksgiving and all). I purchased a '12 4 cylinder 4WD manual Tacoma the beginning of June this year from your dealership and it now has 10372 miles on it. I have driven from Charleston to Norfolk, Va about 4 times now, so most of the miles are on I-95. I bought the truck new and in the powertrain configuration because being in the Navy, my next 5 years will involve a lot of driving from Groton to Maine to Norfolk, I am also renting out my house in Charleston so trips to the Lowcountry is also inevitable. I also purchased my first Toyota because I did not want to have any major problems with my vehicle (I also bought the Hendrick 100k mile bumper to bumper warranty) for at least the next 5 years or so. About 3 weeks ago I noticed that in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear the clutch slips under acceleration, so I started asking around about what was going on because I have never (out of owning 4 manual transmission vehicles in the last 15 years) experienced a slipping clutch. My friend has basically the same truck as me but a 2010 at 12k. He had the same problem, and his clutch was fixed under warranty/ TSB 0066-11. Evidently there was a problem with quality control with the LUK company friction plates and they wore out fast (about 10K miles) and they were subsequently replaced by the TSB with a type B (Aisin) clutch. I learned that the TSB only covers 2005-2011 Tacomas, which has me a little confused because my truck is having the SAME symptoms noted in the TSB 0066-11! I can say with absolute certainty that am very proficient at driving a manual transmission (I will go on a test drive with anyone to prove my proficiency), have been since 1997. My first vehicle was a 1971 GMC Sierra with a 3-on-the-tree! I have had a Jeep and 2 Mustangs with manuals as well. I have NEVER replaced a clutch in a vehicle I bought used and drove for years thereafter. My mother-in-law has PT Cruiser with 83k with the original clutch! So you can see I am a little perturbed, why is my truck's clutch failing? I find it a little too coincidental that the entire 2nd gen Tacoma 2.7L with manuals (except for 2012) are covered by a TSB for clutch failure, whose symptoms my truck is having. I have not had the truck broken down to have the clutch replaced yet, mainly because I am furious that a brand new Toyota is having a major problem at 10K! I know for a TSB to be developed a number of complaints have to be made, and I have no intention being a $1600 precedent (with out reimbursement). I know of a handful of people with the '12 Tacoma from my forum (TacomaWorld) that are having the same symptoms as me, and guys that have 2005-2011 Tacomas are telling us they had the same problem and it was fixed by the TSB, which only covers the models the have. So I know there are '12 Tacomas out there in my same boat. I also know the 2.7L manual is a rare model, with most chosing an automatic or V6, so complaints will be slow and not frequent until next year. But I refuse to give up (my nature) when I know I am right. I know clutches are like brakes and are not covered by warranties unless faulty, which I am sure my clutch is. I am dreading taking it in to the Toyota Dealer here in Norfolk because it is not a Hendrick dealer and their reputation is low due to the high volume of service. I do not want a quick evaluation by a technician, I would like a definitive evaluation on the clutch. Basically I do not want anyone else to have the same problem as me, maybe even nip a bad supplier in the bud to prevent future problems. I want my truck fixed, but also I would like to help y'all out in correcting a problem. If I need to come down to Charleston to your dealership I will, or I can go to Fayetteville, NC. I will gladly drive to get my truck fixed. I would also like my clutch replaced with the Aisin clutch components to prevent further premature wearing. I hate to say it, but if the clutch is deemed to be worn due to the operator then I will be getting rid of the truck with a bad taste in my mouth. I will not spend $1600 every 10K miles to get a clutch replaced with experienced operation.
Damn. Maybe I should have thrown more of a fight. Its not terrible as it is, but I have put a lift and wheels/tires package on my truck since. I think im pretty much screwed with my clutch, not to mention the dealer I bought my truck from is 600+ miles away in Macon GA from here in Hampton. Good to hear about your clutch. Please let me know how it performs.
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