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Old 07-18-2013, 08:33 PM   #41
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The runners' linear width and height at the flange where they connect to the head are W51mm X H29mm...





They begin at the flange as oval...





...and change gradually along their full lengh to end up as round where they pick up air from the plenum...



I tried sticking a steel ruler into the plenum to measure the diameter of the round port, but it was at too great of an angle to read it. This is one reason why I got an extra manifold. I can keep using the truck as my daily driver while having the luxury of being able to fully explore the manfold and to take note of the dimensions.
Above all else, your scientific process is outstanding. Congrats and I hope this adventure proves very fruitful for you
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:23 PM   #42
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Above all else, your scientific process is outstanding. Congrats and I hope this adventure proves very fruitful for you
Thanks for the kind words, Tusk.
I actually don't know all that much and am learning as I go. In the Army, it's called OJT (on the job training), and each new experience becomes my teacher.

The manifold also serves another useful function. The CNC machinist will use it to get all of his measurements to make the spacer, most notably, the groove to accept the stock O ring gasket. He'll have it this Saturday.

Greg
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:38 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by tooter View Post
Thanks for the kind words, Tusk.
I actually don't know all that much and am learning as I go. In the Army, it's called OJT (on the job training), and each new experience becomes my teacher.

The manifold also serves another useful function. The CNC machinist will use it to get all of his measurements to make the spacer, most notably, the groove to accept the stock O ring gasket. He'll have it this Saturday.

Greg
Thats how it always goes man, learning as you go, I'm in the middle of a similar project myself. Should be finished within a month or two with data to publish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSUMBBFjxrY

haha also always good to have trade skilled friends
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:54 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by BrokenTusk View Post
Thats how it always goes man, learning as you go, I'm in the middle of a similar project myself. Should be finished within a month or two with data to publish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSUMBBFjxrY

haha also always good to have trade skilled friends
I'd literally be nothing without them.

What are you working on? (It's ok if you don't want to say.)
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:05 PM   #45
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Bought a bunch of data logging gear, going to be stepping up fuel pre-heating in slow stages and definitively measure its results, answer the question once and for all on my '13 Scion tC. See what happens to Hp/Trq, MPG's, ignition timing, everything.

The tC runs a semi-high torq 4 banger, the 2AR-FE. Results of mine should carry over similarly to the 2.7L

At least, thats the plan haha.
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:20 PM   #46
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Tooter... do you intend to run this through the CARB for an EO number to clear smog if you go into production?
The complete manifold looks sweet!
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:35 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
Tooter... do you intend to run this through the CARB for an EO number to clear smog if you go into production?
The complete manifold looks sweet!
Wow, I have no idea...
That's a long way down the road. I'm still just at the stage of designing and getting a prototype made so I can test it just to find out for sure whether or not it will actually work.

I'm really linear... and only concentrate on properly negotiating each step one at a time.
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:43 PM   #48
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Also, I've heard testing for Carb status is 10 grand just to apply for the test. Hence why most companies never do it. Of course, that is just hearsay.
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:48 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenTusk View Post
Bought a bunch of data logging gear, going to be stepping up fuel pre-heating in slow stages and definitively measure its results, answer the question once and for all on my '13 Scion tC. See what happens to Hp/Trq, MPG's, ignition timing, everything.

The tC runs a semi-high torq 4 banger, the 2AR-FE. Results of mine should carry over similarly to the 2.7L

At least, thats the plan haha.
That's a fascinating concept...
How did that idea come to you? And how hot do you think you can go before there might be diminishing returns? My first prototype is going to be 2 inches thick. That's big enough to be drilled to do double duty as a preheated fuel rail as it will sink heat directly off the head.
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:48 PM   #50
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Also, I've heard testing for Carb status is 10 grand just to apply for the test. Hence why most companies never do it. Of course, that is just hearsay.
I heard that it was more, and the test samples are not returned.

California sucks... but it can't stop you from selling them in other states.
The spacer might fly under the radar, but the complete custom manifold is what has (or would have if I lived in a free state) me excited.
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:59 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenTusk View Post
Also, I've heard testing for Carb status is 10 grand just to apply for the test. Hence why most companies never do it. Of course, that is just hearsay.
I do my best to have as little to do with the government as possible.
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:16 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tooter View Post
That's a fascinating concept...
How did that idea come to you? And how hot do you think you can go before there might be diminishing returns? My first prototype is going to be 2 inches thick. That's big enough to be drilled to do double duty as a preheated fuel rail as it will sink heat directly off the head.
Be sure to use fuel rated fittings it you venture that route.

I'm a power engineer by occupation. We pre-heat fuel for massive 4 story boilers, why not preheat it for cars was my inspiration. I will start with 84 Celcius (Outlet Coolant Temp) and see what happens.

I don't want to use exhaust high temps due to afterheat fire concerns once I shut the car off and the fuel rail would still be getting heated. Would also be an issue for you going through the spacer, though not AS big an issue.
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I do my best to have as little to do with the government as possible.
Me too.
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:23 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenTusk View Post
Be sure to use fuel rated fittings it you venture that route.

I'm a power engineer by occupation. We pre-heat fuel for massive 4 story boilers, why not preheat it for cars was my inspiration. I will start with 84 Celcius (Outlet Coolant Temp) and see what happens.

I don't want to use exhaust high temps due to afterheat fire concerns once I shut the car off and the fuel rail would still be getting heated. Would also be an issue for you going through the spacer, though not AS big an issue.
Yeah, good thinking. Heat soak from the head at engine shut off might boil the fuel and cause vapor lock on the next startup. Please keep me posted on how your idea progresses.

Greg
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Old 07-19-2013, 10:31 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrokenTusk View Post
Thats how it always goes man, learning as you go, I'm in the middle of a similar project myself. Should be finished within a month or two with data to publish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSUMBBFjxrY

haha also always good to have trade skilled friends
Sure...keep me in the dark you pecker head.

Come get your damn T-Shirt!
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Old 07-20-2013, 03:29 AM   #55
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Sure...keep me in the dark you pecker head.

Come get your damn T-Shirt!
Tusk said he was working on the effects of heated fuel.
You didn't actually read the posts, did you?
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:09 PM   #56
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Tusk said he was working on the effects of heated fuel.
You didn't actually read the posts, did you?
lol, inside joke.
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:30 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tooter View Post
Tusk said he was working on the effects of heated fuel.
You didn't actually read the posts, did you?
Actually I read the entire thread. It's very interesting.

That being said I had nothing productive to add to the discussion so I just left it at the inside joke that Tusky baby was referring to.

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Old 07-20-2013, 06:35 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Krazie Sj View Post
Actually I read the entire thread. It's very interesting.

That being said I had nothing productive to add to the discussion so I just left it at the inside joke that Tusky baby was referring to.

Good. I like humorous banter.

Went to the machine shop today to go over the design details for the tooter 2.7 intake manifold spacer... and it's all green lights.
The date this project began has already been pegged at the beginning of this thread at July the 11th. So the elapsed time to a dyno testable prototype should be right around 3 weeks.

I decided to make a really thick 2 inch spacer, since there is no space restriction on the 2.7 like there is on the 6 cylinder engine. This is going to relocate the throttle body two inches to the right as you're looking at the engine from the front. The Injen intake lends itself to easy relocation because there are only two points of attachment, and one of them is the throttle body. It's basically a free floating intake with no forced points of location... perfect for a spacer test bed.



The intake manifold runners are presently 17 inches long (from the orange gasket, to the white line where the runners meet the plenum).




A 2 inch spacer will make runners 19 inches long for a increased length of 12%.

The latest dyno run indicates that the engine's torque peak is presently at 3,300rpm. I'm thinking that the torque peak could possibly be relocated down to 3,000, or maybe into the high 2,000's. But only the dyno results will show where it actually ends up. Whether or not there will be an actual increase in torque is a totally open question. This will NOT be decided by endless empty baseless subjective conjecturing from "butt dynos"...

...but by REAL dyno numbers.

It's also possible that the spacer might not net any gains. If it doesn't... the charts will let everyone here know the truth, and that will be the end of this project and I'll simply move on to try out other ideas.

But if the 2 inch spacer does prove by actual testing to offer documented low end gains, I'll have some made up and offer them for sale to anyone who wants one on their own engine.

The spacers will not be anodized as that's just an unnecessary added cost that makes no difference in the actual performance of the spacer. Since I have a blasting booth, they will be stainless steel bead blasted to a uniform finish like this...



...and will readily accept any finish.

They will have all of the necessary machined grooves to accept a regular stock O ring Toyota 2.7 intake manifold gasket similar to this and will come with one already on it.




It will also come with all of the necessary longer bolts and bolt spacers to properly support the intake manifold in it's new position relative to the engine. I still need to figure out what hardware to get, but that will be easy to do when I actually have the prototype.
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:22 PM   #59
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Stainless? Why not aluminum? I'd be concerned about electrolysis, as well as expansion coefficient differences causing potential vacuum leaks.

Aluminum is also a better heat conductor for using the spacer as a pre-heater.
Stainless is horrible.
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Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
Stainless? Why not aluminum? I'd be concerned about electrolysis, as well as expansion coefficient differences causing potential vacuum leaks.

Aluminum is also a better heat conductor for using the spacer as a pre-heater.
Stainless is horrible.
I don't think you understand what stainless steel bead blasting is.



The spacers are made out of aluminum... not stainless steel.

Stainless steel is way to expensive, and because its so hard, it's really stressful on the CNC machine to mill.

The stainless steel beads are just the blasting medium... what they're blasting is aluminum.



Just like sand is used for sand blasting,



...except that the stainless steel beads act like tiny ball peen hammers beating on the aluminum surface to normalize it to a soft even matte finish which will readily accept anodizing or any other kind of coating you might want to apply. The stainless steel beads do not coat the surface. The surface remains aluminum. The beads just smooth out the surface.
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