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Old 02-11-2011, 07:48 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
I guess you missed it, but Tasthree was talking about a 5th wheel. In case you aren't familiar with what that means... it is a term that describes the special kind of trailer hitch used on transport rigs.... so yeah, DIRECTLY comparable, just a smaller scale.

The insults I threw at uhaul had to do with them deciding that a 4x4 somehow magically is less capable of hauling a load that an otherwise identical 4x2 is... complete nonsense.
Previous quote and comments edited....

Admittedly I could have been clearer regarding my counter argument.
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Old 02-13-2011, 07:25 AM   #42
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There is alot of nonsense in this thread, like thinking a motor that makes 157lbs (@3200rpm) of torque can reasonably and reliably tow 7000lbs. You would have to slip the clutch so bad to actually get it moving that you would be without a clutch in 200 miles, IF you got it moving.

Comparing the 2.7 to a s-10 4.3 is crazy, that motor makes 240lbs of torque....making it comparable to the 4.0 motor.

As for how I know this, on occasion (when i don't want to get the tractor) move a john deere 568 round bailer, which has a dry weight of 4700 lbs. It takes EVERYTHING my truck has to get it going. There is no way in hell I would get on the road or highway for that matter with that much weight behind this truck it just simply does not have the power.

Now, could I hook up 7000lbs and tow it across my yard...maybe in 4L, but just because it can handle it for 100 ft doesn't mean it could for 4000 miles at 55mph, when towing capacities are rated it is for what the vehicle can handle safely over an extended period of time/distance for the life of the vehicle.
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Old 02-14-2011, 06:33 AM   #43
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post #37(too lazy to quote and edit) , is good , but i take exception to your part about adding a dist. hitch and thinking you can reasonably tow 6500lb. I really have to say thats wrong. The 4.0l and the corresponding transmission allow for that. Go up a 6% grade at the posted or safe speed in the 2.7 and i doubt itll do the speed.
As far as 4x4 being less capable than a 2wd for towing, well sorta , but notin a meaningfull way, it only comes down to being slightly lighter , but also a bit lower...which is betters

post 41 concerning the shortness of the tractor to the trailer...... has nothing to do with the shortness of our truck to a trailer what so ever . Simply , those tractors are designed all the way through to tow all day long, they axle and tire according to bridge laws to allow maximum towing.my(our) tacoma is not. Go through a crosswind with a 6500lb trailer on a reg cab and youll see how to flip a taco w/o a spatula or offroading( cross section and wind load).
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:04 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
No, you would just have to spin the engine faster. .
Umm...Ok? Yes when you slip the clutch you would raise the rpm's, however to keep the rpm's up you cannot just engage the clutch as normal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
I actually have an S10. It is a worthless piece of junk. The engine may make a high torque number on the crankshaft, but it is near impossible to actually get any torque to the wheels where it is needed.
Thats funny, magnaflow's dyno chart of their s-10 4.3 test vehicle shows a baseline of 220lbs/3200rpm.


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Well, I could make that weight move just fine on the road in 2H with a suzuki 2.0. Guess that makes me a better driver than you.
I find this helarious, and furthermore showing that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Since you have an s-10 and not a tacoma how about you wait until you actually have a 2.7 tacoma and do some towing with it before you give advice to people on a forum about its towing capacity. Some people actually believe what they read on this site and it is ill advice for you to state that the 2.7 is adequate for towing 7k lbs.

If toyota believed that the 2.7 could reasonably tow 7k lbs don't you believe they would market the hell out of that...think about it a 23mpg 4-cyl that has the towing capacity of a v8!!!!! And you would say it would hurt the sales of the v6, there is less than a 1500 dollar price difference between 4-cyl 4x4 and a v6 4x4 accesscab's so they would not be missing out on much, especially with the increased sales of the 4-cyl.

Sincerely - 2.7 Tacoma owner with many miles of towing experience.
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Old 02-14-2011, 08:53 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
No, you would just have to spin the engine faster.



The formula is TORQUE = POWER * RPM / 5252
Go ahead and plug in all the numbers you want, but remember that you are calculating for WHEEL torque, so you need to input WHEEL RPM (which you can calculate knowing wheel diameter and vehicle speed).
torque is not generally found using a formula it is usually a measured value. Power in the otherhand is found using a formula
P=τ*ω
power=tau(torque) X angular velocity (rpm)
if you knew power and wanted to know torque its easy to rearange.

You are correct about gear ratio though. 1st has a final ratio of 3.95:1 so at 180 lbs ft not accounting for losses you have 711lbs ft at the rear axels. mind you your 159 hp has been reduce to 40HP because all HP is, is the ability to apply force over distance In simple terms you can't go fast in 1st.
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Old 02-14-2011, 02:56 PM   #46
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50 hp will tow 10,000 lb an more, with the right gear ratio, those ooold farm tractors dont have a lot of hp, just a lot of gears. None of this has to do with the tacoma though.

Consider this about "loyal" and diehard people who love their trucks (ANY brand) . Why do they try to find a way to demonstrate their fave rig can actually do more .... and their truck did it easy.......blah blah blah....... and it towed a 1 ton blankety blank from a ditch , etc. toyota couldve said screw it 2000lb , i think they played it honest , figured it will do 3500 and they can expect reliability.
Dont do 7k with the 2.7on the road , i will call you a family killer/ baby slaughterer for the truck-tard idiocy of it. Tow 8k flat across an acre at 5mph or so, if the fat guy can pull a 747 with his back,then dont worry and you dont need to boast to us about it.

Its not what we know that makes us smart, its what we didnt or dont know that might make us stupid.
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Old 02-14-2011, 04:02 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post

So adding a class 4 hitch to a 4-cyl 4x4 should reasonably (I say reasonably because there is nothing you can do to alter the manufacturer's "specifications") give it a 6500 pound safe (at least as safe as for a 6) towing capacity. Naturally, for going over 3500 pounds, you want trailer brakes and a weight distribution coupler. Don't expect it to hold 75 mph up a steep hill, but that isn't the point of it. Just think about how many times you've passed transport rigs climbing steep hills at 30 mph in a 70 zone....


And a little point about capacities.... when listing weight capacities, virtually ALL manufacturers (of all kinds of equipment) leave a big margin between LISTED capacity and REALISTIC capacity, typically by a factor of 2. I've never hesitated to go a good deal beyond a vehicle's listed hauling capacity. At the moment (waiting for tacoma delivery), I'm driving a vehicle with a hauling capacity listed as 1500 pounds. I've pulled well over 3000 with it. It struggles to get going and struggles to climb hills, but zero problems with control and it does the job. I believe that 6500 is a lot closer to tacoma's *real* capacity than typical on account of having the equipment to really get it there. The real capacity that they figure on is probably 7000, which is double the standard rating.
does this mean i can resonably tow 14k with my v6?
double the engine power double the capacity right?

so basically with your logic my truck has the same kind of rating near diesel power cuz the f250 is rated at 11200lbs.

your full of crap, there is no way in hell you can safley get a 4 banger (in our trucks) to tow that much.

im gonna laugh at your ass when your stuck at the bottom of a hill
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:34 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post

That would be CRANKSHAFT torque -- irrelevant.
You should bow out gracefully at this point, with this statement i want to learn nothing from you.

You show me a dyno that measures crankshaft hp/torque and i'll show you a real live breathing dinosaur.
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:43 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
And you happen to know what ratio first gear is? First gear is a nice low ratio -- no need to slip the clutch excessively. THAT IS WHY THERE ARE FIVE DISTINCT RATIOS!
Its not that low, please drive/tow with one before commenting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
Fact is that because the s10 is such a weak piece of crap, I actually prefer to pull heavy loads with a SUZUKI. Much smaller engine, but a much more efficient transmission gets more torque to the ground in 3rd gear than the s10 gets in ANY gear. And yeah, that sometimes means spinning that little suzuki at 6000 rpm... where it holds its speed a lot better than the s10 does at 4000 and is unable to shift without exceeding the redline and so SLOOOOOWS down.
Consistantly towing at 6k rpms is NOT ok and drastically reducing the life of your motor. Way to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
ENGINE DOES NOT DETERMINE SAFE HAULING CAPACITY! Just because you jam a bloated 8 cyl engine into something does NOT mean that you suddenly have a greater capacity to STOP a load.
No one ever stated that this truck could not stop a load properly, must be your imagination running wild. I simply stated that without enough power to adequately get your load moving would be unsafe and very annoying to everyone else on the road

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
What is $1500 times 10 thousand? Right, a big pile of money. $15 MILLION. How much extra do you think it costs to manufacture a 6 vs a 4? $100? $200? Whatever it is, it adds up to huge numbers.
True, however with the extra market share they could get from v8 owners could result in easily 20k more tacomas sold per year, lets say they make a net profit of 8k per truck that would be a profit of 160 million for the company....who care about a measley 15 million dollars?
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:57 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
NO!!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT!

TOWING CAPACITY HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH POWER!

You need to be able to STOP and STEER. THAT IS ALL.
You dont seem to know much about towing. TWR is determind by the ability of the vehicle to get the load moving, control the extra weight of the trailor, frame strength, suspensions ability to dampen, Axel strength, Tranny strength, and support the extra weight, and stop it. You are not an engineer, and telling people that you can tow more than the vehicle is rated for is beyond fucking stupid.
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:09 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris4x4 View Post
You dont seem to know much about towing. TWR is determind by the ability of the vehicle to get the load moving, control the extra weight of the trailor, frame strength, suspensions ability to dampen, Axel strength, Tranny strength, and support the extra weight, and stop it. You are not an engineer, and telling people that you can tow more than the vehicle is rated for is beyond fucking stupid.
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Old 02-15-2011, 06:20 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
Have. Fact remains.
Amazing since you do not own a tacoma.

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Originally Posted by dhk View Post
1) No, a good engine is perfectly happy with that.
Not for extended periods of time, it increases wear and tear therefore reducing engine life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
2) What proportion of the time you operate your vehicle would you need to operate it like that?
None, I'm not the idiot trying to tow 7k lbs with an inadequate vehicle. Ask yourself this question, you stated that towing at 6k rpm's was ok.

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Originally Posted by dhk View Post
Because the ONLY safety consideration related to towing IS the capacity to stop.
Nope try again.

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Originally Posted by dhk View Post
And it has MORE than enough power to do that.
see above

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Originally Posted by dhk View Post
What extra market share are you referring to? Are you meaning to suck in customers from other auto makers who drive 8cyl trucks? Because if that is what you are meaning, then yeah, they ARE doing that. Poll this forum and you'll find lots of people who switched from an american 8 to a tacoma. If you are talking about switching between tacoma and tundra, then I don't follow your reasoning... tundra is a much larger vehicle and can't be compared in this manner.
Well i see you've been on the forum for less than a month and have under 100 posts, most which are in this thread. If you would notice by reading threads that the people that tow heavy loads on a regular basis sell their tacoma and go with a full size truck because even the 4.0 is not an ideal tow rig.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
I am perfectly comfortable with the fact that I am right. It isn't my problem that you prefer ignorance.

How about the one posted on the manufacturer's website? It isn't very detailed, but it says 159 HP @ 5200 RPM and 180 footpounds @ 3800 RPM. THAT IS CRANKSHAFT!
Now your quoting tacoma crankshaft numbers, which i have NEVER mentioned.

I stated a dyno chart concerning the s-10, which you proceeded to tell me was crankshaft numbers. There is NO WAY a dyno can give you crankshaft power/torque....it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
And if you are interested in STARTING a load, which is what you have been continually harping on, I've *NEVER* seen a dyno that referred to STARTING torque. What I am referring to is that maximum torque that the vehicle is able to deliver to the wheels while STOPPED. I think if this were measured, you would find VERY little relation between this value and the size of the engine. This would have a lot more to do with driveline inertia and the physical size of the clutch (or in the case of an auto, the efficiency of the torque converter).
This does not even make sense. Its not even worth my time to comment.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:19 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
Check, it can get the load moving.


All of these characteristics are identical between 4 and 6 cyl equivalent vehicles, i.e. 4-cyl AC 4x4 vs 6-cyl AC 4x4.


Only needs to be able to handle the engine. If the engine supports the load, then so does the tranny.


Again, the vehicles are identical, save for the engine, so yes, it can support the weight without any problem.


Actually, I AM an engineer.


Go back and read the arguments presented. If you do and understand them, you will realize that it can actually deal with more load than the "rating".
So....You dont think an extra load on teh tranny is going to hurt it?? And IF your an engineer, Your not a very good one. You should already know this stuff. Granted, there may be a little bit of room for error, as far as the max. TWR, as it would be stupid to design an tow vehicle to operate at its limits. However, suggesting that its perfectly fine to tow whatever one wants, going above and beyond the TWR, is ridiculous. Not only that, But if the operator is oulling a trailor that weighs more thean the vehicles TWR, and gets in an accident, the liability could be overwhelming.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:28 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
Again, the vehicles are identical, save for the engine.

The transmissions are not the same, this would be the weakest link in the 4-cyl.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:30 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris4x4 View Post
Not only that, But if the operator is pulling a trailer that weighs more than the vehicles TWR, and gets in an accident, the liability could be overwhelming.
Lawsuit Heaven.

BTW chris i fixed your typos :P
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:39 AM   #57
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Of course it can handle more than the rating, because all engineers, you and me included, operate using a factor of safety. This is used to compinsate* for assumptions made and the fact that empirical formulas derived for the design are close approximations of actual forces incurred in the material.
You are suggesting that it is a good idea to reduce that factor of safety. This is not a great idea.
Now I do understand that assuming that the brakes and frame and all other aspects except the motor are the same than you should be able to stop and manauver the load safely.
Now, the 6,500# for the V6 is also based on having the stock weight distrubuting hitch reciever. Most do not install these on the 4 banger as they do not need them. Also required to tow the 6,500# is a brake controller also not commonly installed on the 4banger.
So, if you go ahead and get the weight dist. hitch and brake controller than your frame and brakes should be able to handle the load.
However, having towed some pretty heavy loads with my 4 banger, I would not want to even try to tow such a heavy load, and I would definatly not let the RPM's slip over the red line, and would not even consideer holding them close to the red line.
Just my 2 cents.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:49 AM   #58
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Name: Christian
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I just look in the manual to find out towing capacities.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:58 AM   #59
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
Explain to me then why the 4.0 has TWO DIFFERENT TOWING CAPACITIES depending on whether the vehicle is or is not equipped with a class 4 hitch. Without the class 4 hitch, its rating is identical to the 2.7 (which is not available from factory with a class 4 hitch)..
Different tow capacities because of extra coolers (Tranny and oil), alternator (Yes, a trailor creates an additional electrical load on the tow vehicle). You keep saying that the "Engine creates the load" on the tranny, and while that is partially true, load on the engine is also determind by how much weight it is pulling. A little example, when not towing, my bank 1&2 front cats are opperating at about 1440*. Under WOT, they get to about 1552*. Going up a hill (6%) they get to the same temps. When towing my boat (3000#), they NEVER get below 1500*, even under partial throttle. when getting on the freeway, at 60% throttle, the temps get to 1650*. The same 60% throttle unloaded gets them to 1480*. More work on the tranny is going to also creat more heat, so that heat needs to be removed, otherwise longevity of the tranny is compromised. SO, it needs another external cooler. I could go on, but Im growing board. You need to look more into the dynamics of towing, and the stress, loads, etc., imparted on a vehicle.
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:14 AM   #60
If You Search...You Shall Find.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk View Post
Except that the force on the transmission is created by the ENGINE, not the load. If one were to assume that the transmission is adequate for the engine, then it is adequate for anything you can throw at the vehicle.
It is adequate for this engine, and the assumption that you will not be towing over the stated towing capacity. Toyota engineers did not design the 2.7 motor/transmission/rearend to get an extra 7000lbs moving.

You do know what happens when you assume?

I have personally put 4700 lbs behind my truck, and I am telling you that the power is not there. We can blame it on the motor, transmission, rearend or whatever till your little heart is content. I assure you that i am a competent driver, and have been driving and towing with manual transmission vehicles for many many many years.
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