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Throw out bearing issues, please help!

Discussion in '1st Gen. Tacomas (1995-2004)' started by Combatman, Jul 29, 2014.

  1. Jul 29, 2014 at 5:44 PM
    #1
    Combatman

    Combatman [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Alright my truck is a 1996 tacoma 3.4l manual with the r150(f?) transmission

    Back story:
    Bought the truck cheap with a clutch that was at the end of it's life ( didn't shift very well at all but no noises)

    Decided to get a marlin crawler clutch installed.
    During install the shop informed me there was no pilot bearing on the input shaft.
    They installed it an told me everything went smooth

    1000 miles later I hear a chirping whenever my foots not on the clutch.
    After 2 weeks of bugging both parties I got a discounted rate on install and I got marlin crawler to cover labor and a new kit.

    Got the new kit installed and after 200 miles it had begun chirping (much quieter because I was weary of it this time)

    Well because of how hard it was to get them to cover the cost last time and the fact that I almost got stuck with the bill I decide I would do it this time, so now I have my transmission (and tcase) pulled and I'm trying to figure out what all I need to replace.

    THE PARTS:
    So the first time they replaced everything it looked like the TOB was seizing on the pressure plate(marks around the fingers) and in inspecting the TOB there were no signs of physical wear except a very small wobble between the inner and outer parts of the bearing

    The TOB I just pulled had the same wobble between the inner and outer parts, an. Also wobbled on the input shaft as well (felt like the inner part was a little too wide for the Shaft)

    And it left the same marks (but lesser) on the pressure plate:epuhu6et_f85d5233e0c897e369507cbf4ea77e8df5dc7fe6.jpg

    So what so I need to replace? Could it be I got to faulty TOBs when marlin crawler claimed they had never had a faulty TOB before? Could my input shaft be causing wear on the TOB causing early wear?

    I just need help. I hoped this clutch job would have been fine when They put it together the first time, but now I'm stuck doing the work myself, and Ive been out my new truck going on a month now
     
  2. Jul 29, 2014 at 6:04 PM
    #2
    96Tacoma4WD

    96Tacoma4WD Well-Known Member

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    I did the same thing, had the whole clutch assembly and all bearings replaced. even had the master and slave cylinders replaced by Toyota. About a week later I hear a chirping noise when I start the truck and while driving. When I depressed the clutch pedal the chirping noise stops. I swore it was a bad pilot bearing.
    Through much research and bringing it back to Toyota, I determined the chirping is being caused by the input shaft bearing. Not one of the bearings replaced in the clutch replacement.

    You have to open the transmission case to get the input shaft bearing and you might as well replace all the bearings inside the trans, if you get to that point.

    I believe the main issue is that over mileage things in moving assemblies seat certain ways. Once pulled apart/changed and replaced the seating can change causing chirps etc.

    The chirping noise is not as loud as it once was and is approx. $2,500 if I want to go to the trouble of addressing it.

    Not sure if my experience helps but hope you solve the problem.
     
  3. Jul 29, 2014 at 6:17 PM
    #3
    Combatman

    Combatman [OP] Well-Known Member

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    I thought something like that might be the issue, but TOB seized up and wore groves on the pressure plate after only 200 miles, I don't think an input shaft bearing could cause that, would it?
     
  4. Jul 29, 2014 at 6:55 PM
    #4
    tomtom

    tomtom Well-Known Member

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    I've only done two clutch jobs in my lifetime so I do not profess to be an expert but, I don't think it is the TOB.

    Here's my clutch cover with about 20k miles on it:
    DSC_0031_zps7da4662f_a30863e007151d6a99d1bf31323f321ee9ae0605.jpg
    I've got similar scoring as you do and they make sense to me.
    1. The shiny thin band scoring is from where the TOB makes contact with the springs to release the clutch. To release the clutch springs takes a lot of pressure, hence the markings. I mean, shit, you're stepping on a pedal which is helped by hydraulics to move the fork to press the TOB against the pressure plate spring fingers. From what little I know of metallurgy, it wouldn't make many uses to get it looking that way.
    2. The outer band markings are from where the throwout bearing rubs more lightly as it engages and disengages.
    3. If the chirping happens when the clutch pedal is not depressed, it would tell me the problem lies elsewhere. The TOB is not doing anything under those circumstances. There's no pressure on it, just free spinning on the transmission input shaft. Typically, when TOBs are going out, they squeal due to hot bearings when the clutch pedal is depressed (it is under pressure).
    4. I have the same clutch kit and have had no issues. The bearings are high quality. It would seem odd to me that the same problem has occurred with two different TOB.

    I don't know where else to look except at the pilot bearing and the input bearing to the transmission.

    What exactly do you mean by the TOB was seizing on the pressure plate?
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2014
  5. Jul 29, 2014 at 7:17 PM
    #5
    Combatman

    Combatman [OP] Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was seizing because of the amount of scoring on the pressure plates after such little use.

    The chirping did go away for about 200 miles after the replacement clutch got put in.

    It's interesting you say it might be the pilot bearing, as it didn't chirp on the original clutch, but the shop said there was no pilot bearing in it originally, then it started tweeting after they put one in?
     
  6. Jul 29, 2014 at 7:34 PM
    #6
    weezer

    weezer Well-Known Member

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    dang man what happened to these trucks? my 1988 i drove for 300k miles and never had any trouble with the clutch, transmission, engine, or bearings or anything. even after i sold it they are probably still driving it today on the original parts at over 500k miles.

    these trucks fall apart like a ford truck or something these days. :laugh:
     
  7. Jul 29, 2014 at 8:02 PM
    #7
    tomtom

    tomtom Well-Known Member

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    How bad is this chirp? As vehicles age, they just start making noises. Some are worse than others. Sometimes, the cheapest way to fix the problem is to let it fail. Diagnosing can get expensive.

    I mention the pilot bearing and the input shaft bearing in the transmission as these are the most obvious moving parts that could contribute. I think you've hit on the key with the clutch engagement/disengagement causing the difference but the hard part is making the connection to what the change in pressure on the transmission input shaft is causing to squeak.

    I find it odd that it had no pilot bearing when they originally did the clutch. Then again, I think the 2nd Gens don't use a pilot bearing on the MTs.
     
  8. Jul 30, 2014 at 5:28 AM
    #8
    Combatman

    Combatman [OP] Well-Known Member

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    The chirp wasn't bad this second clutch when I only drove it 200 miles, but the first clutch after I drove it 1500 miles it was pretty noticeable.

    In trying to find the noise I found it was much louder and cleared when I listened through the clutch fork hole.

    I was thinking that maybe the TOB was the issue, and the wobble I'm noticing between on the TOB is causing the chirping, and putting pressure on the TOB with the clutch fork is stabilizing the TOB and making it quit chirping. Is this possible? (I'm not all that familiar with transmissions)
     
  9. Jul 30, 2014 at 8:17 AM
    #9
    gearcruncher

    gearcruncher Well-Known Member

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    With 2 new clutch release bearings recently installed , I would think that the free play adjustment wasnt done properly . If you follow Toyotas FSM , they want free play at the top of the pedal to prevent the release bearing from turning all the time .

    If you are looking through the bell housing with a flashlight , is the release bearing turning while the engine is running ?
    Our Tacomas do not use a self adjusting clutch , therefore the release bearing is semi centrifical rather than fully centrifical .
    Here is the adjustment procedure http://www.customtacos.com/tech.old...6toyrm/06toypdf/06rmsrc/rm2006ta/02900510.pdf

    The duty of the pilot bearing is to support the centrifical weight of the clutch disc when you push the clutch pedal down to the floor . With this said , the only time a pilot bearing will make noise is when your clutch disc is moved away from the flywheel.
    If the pilot bearing was missing for a period of time , other components within the transmission had to take that load .
    I beleive the 6 speeds no longer use a pilot bearing and have design implementations to the input shaft , input shaft front bearing as well as the input to output shaft bearing to accomodate this extra load . I still beleive the design needs improvement . They should have kept the pilot bearing in the 6 speed .

    Getting back to your transmission , I would also be looking at the input shaft run out .
    http://www.customtacos.com/tech.old...6toyrm/06toypdf/06rmsrc/rm2006ta/02900110.pdf

    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
  10. Jul 30, 2014 at 10:30 AM
    #10
    Combatman

    Combatman [OP] Well-Known Member

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    I guess it's possible they didn't adjust the clutch, I wish I could pore that some how and get my money back, but I already have the transmission out.

    So do I need to put a new pressure plate in there do you think?

    Or just a new TOB and adjust?

    Also I looked at that link, but I still don't understand how to Check for input shaft runout
     
  11. Jul 30, 2014 at 10:51 AM
    #11
    gearcruncher

    gearcruncher Well-Known Member

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    This post gives you service specifications
    http://www.customtacos.com/tech.old...6toyrm/06toypdf/06rmsrc/rm2006ta/00302610.pdf

    This post shows you how to check the clutch and how to check the release bearing .
    Now that the transmission is out , does the release bearing feel rough ?
    http://www.customtacos.com/tech.old...6toyrm/06toypdf/06rmsrc/rm2006ta/02901310.pdf

    For checking the input shaft run out , I couldnt find anything in the manual to use as a guide to show you . How much movement does the input shaft have if you were to lift it up and down and back and forth by hand ? this is usually done with a dial indicator . Its going to be a good idea to check the input shaft since the pilot bearing was missing . Maybe the input shaft is good and its just circumstancial that two release bearings failed .
    There was no explanation in the manual for bell housing run out either . If Bell housing run out is off , it can cause the release bearing to side load on the pressure plate fingers
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
  12. Aug 1, 2014 at 5:28 AM
    #12
    Combatman

    Combatman [OP] Well-Known Member

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    So I'm pretty convinced that the shop didn't adjust my clutch, after a talk with the mechanic he said "my hydraulic clutch doesn't need adjustment because it's hydraulic" there's that. Not going back to the mechanic again.

    I'm going to replace the TOB while I've got the transmission out, then I'm going to put it all back together and adjust the clutch and hopefully that will remedy all this dumb mess.

    Thank you everyone for all your help! Is there anything I need to remember when putting the transmission back together? Do I have to realign the clutch if I never removed it? I know you're supposed to put the input shaft in without putting pressure on the clutch, but is there any other things I should be careful of? I've never done this before.
     
  13. Aug 1, 2014 at 6:19 PM
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    cmj

    cmj Well-Known Member

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    He's not wrong. As long as the hydraulics are bled properly, it should adjust itself.
     
  14. Aug 2, 2014 at 7:21 AM
    #14
    Combatman

    Combatman [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Now I'm confused, that's not what I was hearing earlier in the thread
     
    tacoguy88 likes this.
  15. Aug 2, 2014 at 7:40 AM
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    tomtom

    tomtom Well-Known Member

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    If you have the FSM, the clutch pedal adjustment is called out on pages CL-2 and CL-3.
     
  16. Aug 5, 2014 at 1:44 PM
    #16
    lunch box

    lunch box diesel mechanic

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    when I installed my new clutch I had a duplicate chirp I started a thread on here but it was like a year ago,all I did was spray a little lithium grease through the inspection cover on the TOB and chirp stopped I had to do it about 1 time a month for maybe like 4 months now it seems to have broken itself in and I havent herd that sound for ever,
    I thought it was the TOB retaining spring rubbing something cause it sounds just like a spring rubbing and going chirp chirp....ps the post is I think under clutch squeek.http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/1st-gen-tacomas/238402-clutch-squeek.html
     
  17. Aug 5, 2014 at 1:48 PM
    #17
    lunch box

    lunch box diesel mechanic

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    If you still have the trans out I would lube it up with some grease on the splines and fork mating surfaces, all I used was antisieze and wish I would have used grease, that may have been why it was chirping..?
     
  18. Aug 5, 2014 at 3:54 PM
    #18
    Combatman

    Combatman [OP] Well-Known Member

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    I do still have the trans out, I'm waiting on a new throw out bearing. I appreciate the input, what kind of grease should be used on it, an how much should be used?
     
  19. Aug 6, 2014 at 1:28 AM
    #19
    lunch box

    lunch box diesel mechanic

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    id try lucas red and tacky multipurpose EP grease, but what ever you use for say your U joints will work fine. I would lubricate the splines well also the fork where it meets the TOB and I guess on the TOB itself also. Id probly just kind of paint it on if you used allot it will just sling it onto the bell housing.like it said in my other post a few shots of penetrating oil or lithium grease made mine go away just make sure you spray the TOB and not the clutch pack cause oil can make your clutch friction discs start to slip.
    I wouldnt freak over the squeek it will go away after things start to break in.is yours the same as mine was just the slightest touch of the petal and it goes away?
     

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