Next Gen mule spy shots

Why does every one think this will happen? We got a whole new truck in 05. Why do you think that will never happen again?

 

Not at all. They would never leave the same body, the 4runner gets a facelift like what every other year? I'm positive after 10 years unchanged they have realized its time for something new.

 

That press release is very interesting, and according to it, Toyota will be introducing 14 new engines globally in 2015.
Looks good for a gen 3 getting a new engine.

 

I think it is fair to have some cynicism. The trucks are overpriced and inefficient and they STILL sell a shitload of them. 2013 they moved 160k units, which is like 65% of the market. Why change it if we idiots still buy them as quickly as they are made? Well, finally there is an alternative besides lol frontier. Thank fuck for the colorado.

On paper it is superior to the tacoma in a lot of ways. So toyota is going to have to one-up or match it in all the important categories to remain competitive. Of course GM has a bad reputation, but the truck itself still has better stats and that matters. Personally I think that the weakest part of the truck is the engine. They are good and reliable, just old technology. As long as the 3rd gen is better than the colorado, then everybody (who matters) wins.

On top of that, like I keep posting about, the new fuel efficiency standards along with market perceptions are going to force a redesign that focuses more on fuel economy. The weird thing about the CAFE standards is that for trucks it is based on footprint, not classification. Basically that means that making the truck smaller doesn't make it easier to meet the standard. Which is weird, but I think that means it is unlikely to get any smaller than it currently is. I'm not sure if the mule is any evidence of the size. edit: I also should mention that light weight materials will become a more important design element so that makes minor cosmetic redesigns unlikely.


Although I remember reading somewhere that the hilux and tacoma could end up sharing the same frame. I don't know how anyone can possibly know that. Exciting times for truck nerds.

 

Well the tacoma got a hair bigger from 1st gen to 2nd gen. I do agree with you that it's not going to get any bigger because the heavier it is, the more Toyota is going to have to jack with the trans/engine to get the mpg up, and it might as well be a full size. My buddy's chevy 1500 only weighs only 250 lbs more than my double cab. The design will for sure change, along with a new engine/trans to increase mpg's. In the highly unlikely case that Toyota doesn't do much at all, that to me would indicate that they are phasing the Tacoma out of the shrinking midsize market.

 

You're not serious, are you?

Many issues? I read it is kinda clunky and notchy, but it's not a total dog I hope?

 

I noticed something in this pic which will probably make some of you happy. Look at the transmission - see that 1" thick steel plate sandwiched between the front and rear sections? It's behind the tranny drain plug that they wired what appears to be a temp sensor into.

That's a plate that holds midshaft bearings and the forks. The current tailset six speed does not have one of these.

This ladies and gents is a headset transmission that will likely have much more in common with the current R155 in the four cylinder models. At the very least it's nearly a guarantee that the current RA60 and its short overdrive will finally be gone.

 

Gearing and throw out bearing issues are mostly what I meant.

 

What does that mean exactly? I'm not all that well versed on transmissions.

dp

 

Great information, but I'm a bit disappointed. The thread title had me expecting to see a mule wearing google glass and driving a volvo.

 

Man.. I've been wrenching for 20+ yrs and even I don't know what you're talking about...

Basic english for us folks

 

Lemme grab some pix from random posts on TTORA.

Here is the six speed the Taco has now. Notice, no 1" thick metal separating two parts of the case.




When you take it apart, the mainshaft (that goes to the clutch) has that tapered roller bearing where it mates with the output shaft. There is nothing in between. Front is left in this pic:




Basically, the first shaft is long, it gets all the gearsets, and that massive bevel gear on the right side of the pic transfers torque from the bottom shaft to the output shaft in gears 1-4 and 6. The short output shaft is everything to the right of the bright bronze synchro ring next to that big gear. There's a bearing in there to let them spin separately. 5th gear (1:1) slides the #3 hub rearwards to lock the long front shaft to the short rear shaft. Notice the two shafts are only supported on the ends of the transmission.


Now let's look at an R151, which is very similar in design to the current R155 (pic on 4x4wire):



Left side of pic is the front of the tranny. You can see the splines that go into the clutch. Notice the bearing plate that the vice is holding everything up with - that's what you can see in the test mule pic.

Power flow is kinda reversed with this one compared to the RA60: the input shaft is short - it only goes to the first gear on the left, and that's it. The output shaft gets all the gearsets. To get 4th gear (1:1), the #2 hub slides forward to lock the two shafts together.


Remember the big gear at the back of the six speed tranny? That's called the reduction gear. Basically, when you pick something other than 1:1 that needs a gear on the countershaft, that gear is what carries the torque back up to the output shaft. It's at the back, so that's a tailset tranny.

On the R155, it's backwards: the purpose of the gear in the front is to get the torque down to the countershaft if you're in a gear other than 1:1. The shifting gearsets are what get it back up to the output shaft. Since the reduction gear is in the front, it's called a headset tranny.

 

After further thinking I suppose it's possible that they put in a supporting plate for the 6 speed tailset design to stiffen it up and reduce shaft deflection but given how taken Aisin-Warner is with their headset transmissions I'd bet they're going back to that.

After all, the biggest issue with the six speed is the synchronizers wearing out. The gearsets spin quite a bit slower with a headset reduction gear and that could potentially reduce synchro wear. Might be why most other Tacoma manuals over the years aren't known for blowing synchros all the time.

 

What?

I wouldn't be very happy with any sort of social media built into the truck. That being said, I think that is something real trucks will hopefully never see.

Iroh, I still have no idea what you're talking about. What does this mean for the performance? Does this introduct more torque, more gears, better fuel economy? More difficult maintenance?

 

A lot stronger transmission, most likely. I think if Aisin would give us the torque rating for the R155 it would surprise a lot of people. After all, it's nearly identical to the Aisin AX-15 used behind the Jeep inline 6 for so many years.

Performance... well the shifting feel of the current six speed is about the worst of any vehicle in the past 20 years so it can only go up. The R155 is a lot better; still like a truck, but at least it's smooth, and it doesn't randomly grind gears. If they can get it at least that good then it'll be a good gearbox.

If we're real lucky they'll take care of the quill wear issue too, but how much can we hope for at once.

 

Very interesting transmission stuff.

Ive been looking up some potential power plants in the mule I came across the 2013 North American light engine catalogue from Ward. It has a list of all the engines toyota currently makes. Along with every other major manufacturer. I summarized the relevant toyota stuff in this image. It will help to decode some of the engine code names that get thrown around in the thread.

It's been mentioned a few times already in the thread. I would agree the 3.5L 2GR-FSE that they put in the lexus IS/GS 350 seems like a good possible pick as the new v6 option. Its been out since 2006 so it fits the narrative of feeding us outdated shit. In the article they talk about it not being available in other models due to the cost. But it was written 8 years ago so maybe not any more. Also the engine isn't made in America, so that might make a difference.

Although it is a car engine, it seems like the variable valve timing technology really flattens out the torque curve so that low end torque and high end torque are almost the same. With like 85% of peak being available by 2000rpm. There may be other engineering factors I am not aware of when it comes to deciding between a car vs truck engine. For example, both the current tacoma engines have square bore/stroke (where bore diameter=stroke length). that may just be a testament to how outdated they are, or maybe its a conscious design decision by their Tacoma team.

They'll almost certainly have to develop a new engine as the economy option because seems like all the existing smaller engines are hilariously awful.

 

Good post, tubesock.

The list of engine choices might be further limited by mounts. Maybe? I don't think transverse (FWD) mounted engines are typically adapted to longitudinal (RWD) orientation.

 

The 2GR is longitudinally mounted in both the IS350 and the GS350. So no issue there.

 

I know the spy shots are of the new v6. But no one has even mentioned what they think the new 4cyl will be. My vote would be a version of the 1AR. Although as mentioned above it is not longitudinally mounted in any vehicle in it's current usage.

 

An updated AR seems like a fine option.

I noticed that the current TR engine is the only one with an iron block, the rest are aluminium. I came across this article from the LA times from 1992 about iron vs aluminium blocks. Its interesting to see the guy quote that 95% of GM blocks back then were cast iron. If you look at that engine list i posted earlier, all but one of toyotas engines are now aluminium, account for 55,000 out of 2.5million engines produced. Like 0.2%. And its clear that across the industry most engine blocks are Al. On the other hand, fords latest v6 in the f-150 is some kind of iron alloy instead of pure aluminium.

A lot of people are excited about the 8AR-FTS engine, the turbocharged 2.0L. It's brand new for lexus so I doubt it will appear the following year in the budget version of a pickup, but I look at this from a naming convention perspective, the first number is the generation and the second two letters are the family. So that's the 8th generation AR engine. But there is no generation 3-7 that I can find. It goes straight from 2AR to 8AR. The only time they have skipped generations in the past, as far as I can find, was with the R series engine. Probably a lot of us know and love the 22R engine. If you look at the list of engines on wikipedia there was a 1-10R engine, then it skipped to the 12R, then 14R, then 18R and sequentially to 22R. My point being, there is probably several generations of the AR family between 3 and 7 that will be released with upcoming toyota models, including the third gen tacoma. They will likely include many of the new fuel economy features like dual vvti, low friction rings and all that shit. But without the turbo and other expensive features.

I just came across an interesting article as I was double checking that there is not, infact, a 3AR-FE somewhere. They speculated in 2012 about a 3AR-FTS engine that seems to now be the 8AR-FTS. That is starting to look like it says FARTS.. anyway, skipping to 8 may be some kind of marketing gimmick since it is going into a Lexus. Or maybe they actually have developed subsequent generations on the way to the 8th generation and just haven't released them yet. who knows!