thorny suspension problem

Had a bad off road driving experience, and now having what
seems like some suspension trouble. Any advice or ideas on
how to make this truck happier would be much appreciated!

When the wheels are turned left and right - usually far left or far right -
there is a grinding sound. You have to have someone sitting in the passenger
seat to hear it, I don't think it's audible without a passenger.

The tires are a bit oversize but they've been on there for years &
no problems before.

We've been around the world of mechanics with this car. It can't
quite be brought into correct alignment, but it's close, & different adjustments
don't make any difference with the noise. Some people think the knuckle
needs to be replaced, but can't tell for sure (no obvious bends). Some
people think the struts need to be replaced, but they don't seem that
weak to me (bounce test). The noise sounds a little like CV joint problems
in other cars, but only a little - is there a good test for this? And why
would it need a passenger to show?

We were convinced to replace the lower control arm (driver's side),
which then convinced me that the person who did this didn't know
the answer either, because it made no difference.

The tires are a bit cupped but that probably means either (a) they wear
like that anyway, like some people have told us or (b) the alignment's
been a bit off for a while, like others say.

It doesn't seem likely the frame is bent. If it were, we'd have a ton of
problems, & nothing is obvious (but nothing's been measured).

I'm thinking of putting the standard size tires on here but I fear that's not
going to solve the underlying problem (needs tires soon, tho).

How can I do this smarter than replacing random parts?

Thanks!

 

We worked on this problem in detail this afternoon.

The 2nd alignment seems to have reduced or eliminated the
noise on the front RH/passenger side almost completely, but
it still is present on the front LH/driver's side, particularly
when a passenger sits in.

We chalked the wheel wells thoroly, to try to find tire rub,
& we found some. The back mudflap areas of the front wheel
wells both show rubbing. The RH side shows rubbing but
doesn't seem to make much noise. the LH side is missing
its mudflap & is noisier. It looks to me like the back,
inside edge of the tire can catch the inside edge of the
wheel well and this is what seems to make the noise.

This should eliminate CV joints as a problem.

Why would the tires/wheels now be relatively further back?
Is this a suspension or frame problem after all?

 

I have my money on wheel bearings.

 

A real troubleshooting test for this would be a vid w/audio & kinda hard to tell you anything without some description with any susp. MODS/upgrades, you say you can't get alignment within specs ?? Ok, this could mean it's lifted or it could mean its stock but the susp. is so FUBAR'd it'll never hits specs without new parts.....just sayin'...

 

I'm sure it's a severe suspension problem, I just don't know
how to proceed. I'm somewhat sure its CV joints aren't the
problem (they're not the noise source). I don't think it's
lifted but I think it does have old KYB struts.

I did some more investigation & made a photo album that will help.
I hope this url works - uploaded images here would be too low res
to be useful.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32292837@N06/sets/72157647016769568/
The first shows how the wheel touches the wheel well.
The 2nd shows the shocks + knuckle
The 4th shows the current alignment reading; hard to read, but
LF caster should be 1.1 - -0.5 deg; it's greater, -1.4 deg.

The 3rd shows something I noticed. On the center left at top,
you can see what looks like the polish from the upper control arm
hitting the matting at the top of the wheel well, & on the right
what looks like a hole or rip dug into the mat by the bolt on the
knuckle. There's something similar on the RH side. I don't know
whether these were there before our off road incident but it
seems likely our bounding over rocks could have done this.

Any opinions about what I should do to get the alignment
into spec?

Thanks!

 

Look how chewed up the under splash guard is in Pic #2. I'll bet moola that your tires are too big (Or Wheels), or the struts are gone and not holding up the truck correctly. that would explain why it's worse when someone is sitting in the Passenger seat. Also, I had a fit with my shop about making the camber dead zero and I stood there early 1 morning and watched the Mech make it dead zero on both sides. I know it's in "Spec" but geeze Mech's, get it dead on.

 

Some of that chew up look is coming from
the chalk I put all over the wheel well to find the rubbing
point (it turned out to be obvious).

What do you think of the impact points in picture #3?

 

I think it may be a change of caster in your alignment. idk though

 

I didn't notice on 1st look. Something is terribly wrong for that to be where the strut hits. Has this ever been in a accident?

 

Bouncing over rocks, too fast.

 

If the noise is occurring when you are turning that's indicative that the grinding sound occurs only under a load on the wheels due to body weight transfer. The wheel bearings going out typically make a noise you are describing given the symptoms and conditions it happens under. If they are bad enough, they could potentially be causing an unseen wobble in the tire which is causing the premature wear on it.

If you want to check the bearings take your tire while still mounted on the vehicle in the air and attempt to wiggle it not horizontally (side to side motion) but vertically (up and down). If the tire wiggles at all that's a problem and your bearing should be replaced.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

I'm pretty (99.9%) sure all the noise I'm hearing is from the left front
wheel brushing the back of of the wheel well. Why it's doing it now, & why
the alignment is not in spec, is
the puzzle. I'm leaning towards either the knuckle, or the shock/struts,
being bent (or shot).

Did I miss anything else I should be considering? Are there any
good diagnostics I might not know about? Mechanics I've talked
to can't seem to resolve it, & replacing either = expensive experiments

 

You might want to strongly consider taking the truck into a shop hat has a laser alignment machine. They can typically take measurements of wheelbase width and length, which can help you determine if something is bent or if the frame itself is bent.

Do you happen to have any current alignment specs?

 

I've never heard of that kind of alignment place. How would I know/
find one?

Current alignment specs:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/32292837@N06/sets/72157647016769568/
4th pic on right

 

Holy shit look at that negative camber on the drivers side! It's also wonky on the passenger side also. What kind of suspension do you have? Try and take a picture of the upper/lower control arm, better yet just try to snap a pic of the entire suspension. You either have a tweaked control arm, or spindle, but I can't tell from the angle of the shots. Take several pictures of the suspension, front to rear. If control arms or spindle is not the problem, the next problem could, I know you don't want to hear it, frame.

As far as finding an alignment shop that offers laser alignments, you are going to have to look around. I know Hunter has a laser alignment machine. They are the most accurate within at least 1/10 of a degree. If you can find a shop that has one of those machines or equal to. Get all that info checked out there.

Judging by the other pictures on your flickr account, It looks like the vehicle took a hard impact which caused the UCA to contact and rupture a hole through the fender well sheetmetal. As a sidenote.

 

I think the judgment in the last paragraph is exactly right.
Now I need to get right with it.

Do you know of such a shop around you? I live in the west part of the
same county.

I'll take some more pix tomorrow. We've talked about frame with
other places but they don't believe it - the claim is that these
trucks usually don't bend frames, other things in the suspension bend
first, and any frame bending & the vehicle would show a lot more
problems. This one has what turns out to be a relatively minor
noise problem but the alignment is sure whacky. More soon.
Thanks for giving it all a look!

 

What part of California do you live in bud? Bay area?

Actually, that argument would be more or less correct. Rarely do you see these trucks with bent frames, usually things like the tie rods, spindles, and control arms as well as sometimes even the coil buckets bending first. That's not to say that a bent frame should ever be ruled out of the equation.

BTW. I would strongly suggest you check out those wheel bearing as well, especially if the noise is more pronounced with a weight load on it, like turning, or even an extra 130lbs of a passenger.

No problem bud! I did alignments for about 3 years and worked on vehicles for over 11, so I never voicing my opinion on issues similar to these. I am here to help!

 

I posted a series of pictures in the same place that show the LF wheel suspension
area, some with the wheel turned to the left, some with the wheel straight
forward. I just can't see much (but I'm no expert). Not sure if the upload
is in the same order but the first 7-8 should be with the wheel turned.

I live in Richmond CA.

 

<offtopic>
The way you space your wording makes it look like poetry for some reason
</offtopic>

 

I'll take a look at them when I have better reception. You live ridiculously close to me! I'll PM you a shop's name. They have the alignment machine I am talking about. They'll take care of you. If they can't, they'll set you straight to a place that can determine frame damage.