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Old 11-01-2011, 01:14 PM   #41
MacGyvR [OP] MacGyvR is offline
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So I've come up with three options:

1) Ignore it, but then know my parents are going to get served (they really suck at not answering the door).

2) Have my dad fill out one of the options indicating that he doesn't know who was driving, which so far as I can tell they still illegally penalize him.

3) Fight it in court. I feel very strongly that speed and red light cameras violate our rights as outlined in the constitution by 5th, 7th and 14th amendments. Specifically, the right to due process, the right to face your accuser in court (it's a camera, not a cop), and equal prosecution under the law. Companies, government officials, and people driving vehicles not registered to them are immune.... Meaning that if I don't "man up" and pay an illegal fee, my parents take the blame because the vehicle is registered to them? I don't know about you guys, but I believe convicting someone of a crime that they didn't commit is wrong.

I'd love to ignore it and hope they don't get served, but I think going to court to contest it after they get served wouldn't exactly work in my favor... Has anyone actually fought one of these in court? I have zero experience with this and would love some advice.


[rant]

How can anyone claim that these save lives? There is proof that collisions increase as a result of these cameras being installed. Plus, people who run red lights are going to do it regardless. The system costs the city to lose money after paying redflex it's cut of the shares.


[/rant]
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Old 11-01-2011, 01:37 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacGyvR View Post
So I've come up with three options:

1) Ignore it, but then know my parents are going to get served (they really suck at not answering the door).

2) Have my dad fill out one of the options indicating that he doesn't know who was driving, which so far as I can tell they still illegally penalize him.

3) Fight it in court. I feel very strongly that speed and red light cameras violate our rights as outlined in the constitution by 5th, 7th and 14th amendments. Specifically, the right to due process, the right to face your accuser in court (it's a camera, not a cop), and equal prosecution under the law. Companies, government officials, and people driving vehicles not registered to them are immune.... Meaning that if I don't "man up" and pay an illegal fee, my parents take the blame because the vehicle is registered to them? I don't know about you guys, but I believe convicting someone of a crime that they didn't commit is wrong.

I'd love to ignore it and hope they don't get served, but I think going to court to contest it after they get served wouldn't exactly work in my favor... Has anyone actually fought one of these in court? I have zero experience with this and would love some advice.


[rant]

How can anyone claim that these save lives? There is proof that collisions increase as a result of these cameras being installed. Plus, people who run red lights are going to do it regardless. The system costs the city to lose money after paying redflex it's cut of the shares.


[/rant]
Are you saying that you didn't do it, or that you disagree with the method by which you were caught?

The argument that people who are going to run redlights are going to do it anyways is just stupid. The people that are pre-disposed to murdering others are just "going to do it regardless", that doesn't mean that we should just stop trying to catch them.
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Old 11-02-2011, 02:47 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmcq View Post
Are you saying that you didn't do it, or that you disagree with the method by which you were caught?

The argument that people who are going to run redlights are going to do it anyways is just stupid. The people that are pre-disposed to murdering others are just "going to do it regardless", that doesn't mean that we should just stop trying to catch them.

That's an interesting analogy, but let's build it a little further. Snapping a picture of someone murdering someone close to you would offer very little comfort, and even having video of that same murder isn't enough to prove someone's guilt. I would put forth that the red light cameras endanger more lives by "rushing" people into either slamming on their brakes or gunning it through the light. It is regrettable, but it is human nature.

To answer your question, I'm saying both. I didn't run the light, and I'm offended that while other states have made red light cameras illegal, ours has not. I was already in the intersection as it turned red, the very tail end of the truck was over the "magic line" and triggered the camera. This means if I were driving a Mini i would have gotten off scott-free. The 0.2 seconds into the red is such a stupidly tight tolerance that I would argue it isn't possible to catch someone that quickly (after the light changes) on camera without either shortening the yellow, or firing up the camera early (which is against the 'rules' as far as red light cameras are concerned).


And here's why. In order to have a clear picture with a great depth of field you have to have a small aperture. To get a clear picture of something moving fast, you have to have a fast shutter speed. That means you either have to set the ISO of the camera very high (which will cause some pretty grainy pictures), or have a very bright flash to illuminate what you're capturing. Clearly, they've gone with the flash method. Now, when you send power to a light bulb or LED, light is not produced instantaneously. It takes about 0.1 seconds for an LED to light up, and twice as long for a regular light bulb to light up.


What this means is that the red light camera was turned on before the red light actually engaged, which means they're not playing by the rules. If I were still going to court to fight it, I would bring these points up in my defense. However, I found another way to deal with this ticket.


Snapping a picture of a crime is very similar to someone saying they saw someone commit a crime. It's hearsay because it's not the word of an officer. Now, here comes the loophole. Because an officer was not present to directly give me a ticket, the ticket was sent to the owner of the vehicle (my dad). Because my dad wasn't driving, they can't find him guilty of a crime that he didn't commit. As a result, he sends the ticket BACK with a copy of his drivers license and a written statement indicating he wasn't driving. The ticket is then dropped.


Now, for the "holier than thou" in this thread, all I'm gonna say is haters gonna hate. I drive through Chandler, Tempe, Phoenix, and Mesa every day of during the week for work and school. Each city has it's own rules as to how long a yellow light can be, so every yellow light is different. Now, this was the very first time I was at the intersection that I "ran the red light at." The yellow was significantly shorter than I'm used to....which should also be a crime. Statistics show that a 4 second yellow light (for streets with speeds of 40mph and up) have something on the order of a third less accidents than at other intersections. Anything shorter than that proves the city is just out for money under the false pretense of safety.

Now, I would say that we could improve safety by taking that same money from the cameras and revamping the DMV and drivers ed courses. It's wayyyy too easy (especially in Arizona) to get a drivers license. I say make it much more difficult. Video related:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR2xVtp1Kwc



Now, back to the topic at hand. The best ways to get around red light cameras:
1. Insure your car under your wifes name and vice versa.
2. Create an LLC and register your car to that.
3. Drive wearing a mask or fake beard (which I'm considering )
4. Be holy. Drive at EXACTLY the speed limit at all times, and slam on the brakes the very second you see a yellow light regardless of how close (or far) you are from an intersection. After all, not going the speed limit is breaking the law, and who cares about anyone else on the road?


Here's some helpful links I used when I was doing some research.

Various statistics
http://thenewspaper.com/news/04/430.asp

Defense ideas in court
http://photoradarscam.com/getout.php

Some site that probably hates cameras as much as I do
http://camerafraud.wordpress.com/

A forum with some interesting view points
http://www.city-data.com/forum/phoen...-not-me-4.html

The last site that gave me the answer I was looking for.
http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/go...=result__title

Lastly, props to cr250jumper and Atripplet513 for actually printing the solution I needed in this case. Thanks to everyone else who contributed! I hope (fingers crossed) that this will be the end of my problem. I'll post back if I run into any problems though.
Haters gonna hate.
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Old 11-02-2011, 05:10 PM   #44
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Have your dad sign the paperwork. It's the easiest way and works. My old truck was registered under my stepdads name, and when we had the speed cameras here, I got one.. he sent a copy of his id in saying It wasn't him, and it was never heard from again.
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Old 11-04-2011, 05:11 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dayNnite4 View Post
i dont think ur insurance will go up from a red light cam ticket so be happy about that!!

sure the fck will.
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Old 11-04-2011, 05:32 PM   #46
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I would simply ask if they could just give you a lesser charge to avoid the points on your license (PA has a points system) not sure if this applies to you. Go to court plea guilty to a lesser charge and pay the fine. I would rather pay $50 and not have any points on my license. This is what I have always done and I have 0 points!

The court wants to get you out of their as soon as possible and in some cases the cop(if involved but not in your situation) has to come in, on most cases off duty. So he/she will you rush you out of their as well and will work with you.

Tell them you agree to pay the full amount, as that is what is most important to them. I learned this from a guy at work who is always, i mean always getting a speeding ticket. And I've done it myself and it works!

Seriously though $50??
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Old 11-21-2011, 08:23 PM   #47
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Just to update everyone to what happened: It was dropped immediately.

Hopefully this thread will help someone else who is delivered one of these questionable bills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85yote09taco View Post
Seriously though $50??
Also, not to be an ass, but if you had bothered to read the thread you would have known that the charge was $250, not $50.
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Old 11-23-2011, 07:14 PM   #48
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mack guyver,

can you provide details as to why and how it was dropped and what you did or didn't do that led to this outcome? I'm certain this would be of great importance to many and the idea of "MacgyvRing" a ticket could take on epic meaning and bring you to mind every time.

Glad you got out of it.
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Old 11-25-2011, 01:32 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blatant View Post
mack guyver,

can you provide details as to why and how it was dropped and what you did or didn't do that led to this outcome? I'm certain this would be of great importance to many and the idea of "MacgyvRing" a ticket could take on epic meaning and bring you to mind every time.

Glad you got out of it.
Sure! In this particular case, the vehicle I was driving was registered to my father. Because the ticket was issued by a camera, it was sent to the owner of the vehicle. However, because my dad wasn't driving, he filled out the ticket and sent in option B (which is titled "If you were not the driver") along with a copy of his drivers license. There is an option to report the person who was driving, but you are in NO WAY OBLIGATED to do so. The ticket was then dropped because I look nothing like my father. Hope that helps!
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Old 12-05-2011, 01:25 PM   #50
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Just ignore them. I get a hand full of those a year and I just shred them as soon as they come in. If they want me to pay, they can spend their time to get an officer to serve me the paper work. Which they never have.
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