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Upgrading system. Should I go 12" or 10" sub.

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Old 05-01-2013, 06:37 AM   #1
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Upgrading system. Should I go 12" or 10" sub.

I'm upgrading my system and I initially wanted to go with a 12" sub. But after reading some threads I've learned a lot . Specifically about the air space that is needed to move a 12" sub. With that being said, is it better to go with a 10 "? Can I get a 10 to hit low as a 12 with the right setup? I don't want to spend a lot of money on a sub. $250 is the most I can spend.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:42 AM   #2
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It really depends all on how much air space you want, whether it's going to be sealed or ported, and some personal preference. I've had 12's and 10's in a ported box. I like 10's better because they sound tighter.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:47 AM   #3
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I think it really depends on what type of music you listen to - a 12 is going to be able to hold low continuous bass better than a 10 (mainly in rap and hip-hop) while the 10 will be more geared towards punchy bass in rock and mainstream stuff.

Someone who just wants more bass to their system is not going to be able to tell a major difference though. I personally would go with a sealed 10 due to the size limitations of the truck and the clarity you can get.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:47 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarjamman View Post
I think it really depends on what type of music you listen to - a 12 is going to be able to hold low continuous bass better than a 10 (mainly in rap and hip-hop) while the 10 will be more geared towards punchy bass in rock and mainstream stuff.

Someone who just wants more bass to their system is not going to be able to tell a major difference though. I personally would go with a sealed 10 due to the size limitations of the truck and the clarity you can get.
Agreed!
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:49 AM   #5
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A 10" sub typically requires less air space, so fitting can be a lot easier. Also the actual frame width of a 12" sub can cause fitment problems. Where were you planning on mounting the sub?
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:01 AM   #6
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I'm planning on mounting the sub behind the back seat only using the passenger side. I want to mount the amp in the center and use the driver side for storage. I mainly listen to hip hop and R&B. I'm also into jazz, blues and occasionally rock.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:10 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leggo View Post
I went with this set up and I really am happy with it. 10" Kicker and a sealed subthump box

Nice setup, and I plan to do something similar in my AC, but the OP has a DC, and will be putting his sub behind the back seat. I would search Mr Marv on this site just to check out his boxes to get an idea of what is typically used. He builds some nice stuff, and has been doing it for a long time. With the right 10", you can get it to go low enough and loud enough for your musical tastes.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:23 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerboy View Post
Nice setup, and I plan to do something similar in my AC, but the OP has a DC, and will be putting his sub behind the back seat. I would search Mr Marv on this site just to check out his boxes to get an idea of what is typically used. He builds some nice stuff, and has been doing it for a long time. With the right 10", you can get it to go low enough and loud enough for your musical tastes.
Thanks, I'm gonna check him out.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:12 AM   #10
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12" over 10" and 2 10" over 1 12".

Ported is the same volume as two sealed. So 1 ported 12" over 2 sealed 10".

I did 2 sealed 10" and wish I had gone 1 ported 12" instead.

The key for depth and volume to fit ported 12" is make a box that won't let the seats fold, remove the brace bar for child seats, remove the seat backs, and do the rear seat latch flip mod.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:22 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevL View Post
12" over 10" and 2 10" over 1 12".

Ported is the same volume as two sealed. So 1 ported 12" over 2 sealed 10".

I did 2 sealed 10" and wish I had gone 1 ported 12" instead.

The key for depth and volume to fit ported 12" is make a box that won't let the seats fold, remove the brace bar for child seats, remove the seat backs, and do the rear seat latch flip mod.
I was actually thinking about 1 ported 10 or 1 sealed 12. I really don't want to disrupt anything aside from the plastic storage bins
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:38 AM   #12
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A ported 10 will likely go lower than a sealed 12. What you're doing when you "port" a sub is you're adding low end gain to the tune of +3db or more depending on how you tune it. Of course, some subs respond better to a ported box than others. This depends on how the sub was designed to be used.

Look at the graph a made below. This is a frequency response model of a single Sundown 10" sub in a ported box and a sealed box. In the ported box you can see just how much longer the response "hangs on" as the frequencies played get lower and lower. It's over 10db louder at 30hz in a ported enclosure vs sealed. The important thing is the area under the curve (pictured in green). This is the output you're gaining by going with a ported box.




As noted above, a ported box is usually larger than a sealed box. Sure, you could fit two subs in the same space (assuming you have the mounting flange area needed) but that will only yield a 3db gain. You get a 3db gain every time you double the power or double the cone area. But as you can see from the graph, a single ported sub has an extra 10db of gain at 30hz. So even if you stuffed two 10's in the sealed box AND doubled the power...you'd still be 3db quieter than the single sub.



.......The more you know
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Old 05-01-2013, 01:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItalynStylion View Post
A ported 10 will likely go lower than a sealed 12. What you're doing when you "port" a sub is you're adding low end gain to the tune of +3db or more depending on how you tune it. Of course, some subs respond better to a ported box than others. This depends on how the sub was designed to be used.

Look at the graph a made below. This is a frequency response model of a single Sundown 10" sub in a ported box and a sealed box. In the ported box you can see just how much longer the response "hangs on" as the frequencies played get lower and lower. It's over 10db louder at 30hz in a ported enclosure vs sealed. The important thing is the area under the curve (pictured in green). This is the output you're gaining by going with a ported box.




As noted above, a ported box is usually larger than a sealed box. Sure, you could fit two subs in the same space (assuming you have the mounting flange area needed) but that will only yield a 3db gain. You get a 3db gain every time you double the power or double the cone area. But as you can see from the graph, a single ported sub has an extra 10db of gain at 30hz. So even if you stuffed two 10's in the sealed box AND doubled the power...you'd still be 3db quieter than the single sub.



.......The more you know

Well, let's not oversimplify. There are subs that are made to be ported, and ones that are made to be sealed. Taking into account tuning of the port, Fs (OP - resonant frequency of the sub - the note the sub plays at the easiest), and then F3 (OP - Resonant frequency of the sub in the box - the note the box likes the most).

Just generally, that is a low freq. response for a ported 10". Most of the 10" I have seen do not have more output at 20Hz ported than if they are sealed.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:33 PM   #14
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I used an extreme to show the point simply because it was easier on the eyes to see what's going on.

I agree, some subs are meant to be sealed and some ported. But even most sealed subs that are intended to be sealed don't yield very flat frequency response. In fact, most rely on cabin gain to get anywhere close. What I find to be the best way is to get MORE low end from the box than you need and then use EQ to make cuts. It will make your amps power go further that way. Not only that, but you'll enjoy lower distortion due to the better cone control.

I'm not saying that ALL subs should be ported. But a sub that can be ported is usually better off in a ported box for the above reasons. I'd be happy to model out more FR plots if a better example is requested from y'all.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItalynStylion View Post
I used an extreme to show the point simply because it was easier on the eyes to see what's going on.

I agree, some subs are meant to be sealed and some ported. But even most sealed subs that are intended to be sealed don't yield very flat frequency response. In fact, most rely on cabin gain to get anywhere close. What I find to be the best way is to get MORE low end from the box than you need and then use EQ to make cuts. It will make your amps power go further that way. Not only that, but you'll enjoy lower distortion due to the better cone control.

I'm not saying that ALL subs should be ported. But a sub that can be ported is usually better off in a ported box for the above reasons. I'd be happy to model out more FR plots if a better example is requested from y'all.
yes. please do. I was actually thinking of getting (2) 10's of the model you had modeled in that graph but in a sealed config. by the looks of the recommended manufacturing specs, it looks like I could only fit (2) 8's in a ported configuration, vs having (2) 10's ported, but the 10's would fit sealed...

edit: obviously, I want to maximize the space behind the rear seat in my dcsb and get the most volume.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:05 PM   #16
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I understand your logic, but you are thinking that our hearing works like the graph. On the contrary, our ears are very sensitive to bass, and the ported configuration adds too much to the bottom. Take a look at all of the SQ vehicles - competitive or not. How many of them use a ported box? You can probably count them on one hand.

The port adds a resonance, which can be detrimental to getting a properly tuned car. The notes that come from a port don't sound like the notes from a sealed sub. A bass note from a piano doesn't sound like the same note from a tuba, right?

Obviously, most of this is subjective to the listener. If you like the way it sounds, that is all that matters.

FYI to the OP - there is a reason why Mr Marv's boxes are built for sealed subs.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerboy View Post
I understand your logic, but you are thinking that our hearing works like the graph. On the contrary, our ears are very sensitive to bass, and the ported configuration adds too much to the bottom. Take a look at all of the SQ vehicles - competitive or not. How many of them use a ported box? You can probably count them on one hand.

The port adds a resonance, which can be detrimental to getting a properly tuned car. The notes that come from a port don't sound like the notes from a sealed sub. A bass note from a piano doesn't sound like the same note from a tuba, right?

Obviously, most of this is subjective to the listener. If you like the way it sounds, that is all that matters.

FYI to the OP - there is a reason why Mr Marv's boxes are built for sealed subs.
I think that pretty much sums it up right therr...

if the dcsb's had more space to accommodate 2 shallow subs, it would be a viable option. I tend to think having a single sub would be easier to have the proper port with the given space, though, correct?
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:17 PM   #18
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I haven't read whats posted above but its all about the box! I have a 12 in a big box and yeah its loud but only on heavy bass rap and high volumes. Ive heard a single 8" hit harder then my 12"! plus the 8" was much tighter and cleaner! If I could to it again I would have gone smaller.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:25 PM   #19
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Depends on the sub. JL Audio 10" , sealed enclosure with 400w or more in the Tacoma cab will be pretty dam good. Then it's which 10 in their series. I used their lower end subs in 3 vehicles , and they were awesome.
Had Audiobahn, and it was impressive as well. JBL at 200w not as impressive.
I wanted to do a 15 or 12 in one vehicle with 1000w. Got talked into a single enclosure with 2 ten" JLs and 1000w. I didn't need any more than that to loosen my fillings.
JL recommends the volume that works best for the enclosure, as I'm sure other manufacturers do. Stick with that formula and you'll get great results.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:09 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speakerboy View Post
I understand your logic, but you are thinking that our hearing works like the graph. On the contrary, our ears are very sensitive to bass, and the ported configuration adds too much to the bottom. Take a look at all of the SQ vehicles - competitive or not. How many of them use a ported box? You can probably count them on one hand.

The port adds a resonance, which can be detrimental to getting a properly tuned car. The notes that come from a port don't sound like the notes from a sealed sub. A bass note from a piano doesn't sound like the same note from a tuba, right?

Obviously, most of this is subjective to the listener. If you like the way it sounds, that is all that matters.

FYI to the OP - there is a reason why Mr Marv's boxes are built for sealed subs.
I'm well aware of the Fletcher Munson curve methodology. I too tune for SQ as I've competed in SQ classes with multiple cars over the past 8 years or so. Right now I run a sealed box but that's only because the enclosure area is VERY tight and ports were hard to configure.

And I believe you missed the part of my previous post where I said you should tune the enclosure for a little too much bass and then use EQ to cut response. This protects the woofer.

Let me sum it up. Distortion is caused by movement. Think about it. Any moving parts in an amplifier? Nope....THD is so low you'd never heard it. Even on shitty amps. THD on tweeters (which move very little) is also extremely low. Do you have any idea how much distortion subwoofers output? You'd shit yourself if you saw the graphs. So any time you can acoustically load the cone and keep it's movement to a minimum you'll effectively lower distortion. As your frequency range nears the port tuning you'll see the cone move less and less till it looks like it almost isn't moving at all. That's the tuning frequency of the enclosure. That's also the frequency that your power handling of the system is at it's maximum.

PS: Your example of why a tuba and a piano sound different has nothing to do with what you think it does.
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