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Old 06-09-2009, 12:03 PM   #1
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Component vs. non component front speakers!

Component speaker system vs. 6.5" front speakers?

Plus...do components need to powered? Crutchfield mentioned if the componets were not powered by amp, it would hurt them. True?

I already have a sony cdx-gt500 HU.

Budget is around $150

Suggestions? Comments?
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:06 PM   #2
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components, way better and some will do ok will just HU power youd look for some with a high sensitivity, which means they are louder with less power.
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Old 06-09-2009, 12:13 PM   #3
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components are not necessarly waaay better...it's an imaging bonus of being able to place your tweeter in an alternate location. There are some very good quality non-component speakers out there.

But overall design is to power components with an amp. You can get by with the HU doing it, but you'll have a much better result with the additional power. And yes, you can torch your speakers just using your HU due to not enough power. Easier to blow with too little power than to much.
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Old 06-09-2009, 03:04 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBlueFan View Post
components are not necessarly waaay better...it's an imaging bonus of being able to place your tweeter in an alternate location. There are some very good quality non-component speakers out there.

But overall design is to power components with an amp. You can get by with the HU doing it, but you'll have a much better result with the additional power. And yes, you can torch your speakers just using your HU due to not enough power. Easier to blow with too little power than to much.
I agree with the first part but not the second.

You are not going to blow a speaker with too little power. Over exerting an amplifier will often result in a distorted signal, this does not sound very good. Having a distorted signal with more power than a speaker can handle can cause the voice coil to burn up. But having a clean signal with more power than the speaker can handle will do the same thing, burn the voice coil up. With subwoofers, you can over extend the cone because the dampening effect of the box can be overcome with excessive power or sometimes by a distorted signal that is on the edge of the power handling of the speaker and its enclosure.

Typically, the reason to stick to amplifiying component speakers, versus running them off the HU is because they are less efficient with the power produced. They will have crossovers that reduces the power seen by the individual drivers, which can be off set by providing more up front power.. This is hard to accomplish with a HU's meager amplification chip.
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Old 06-09-2009, 07:41 PM   #5
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ever see a sine wave on an o-scope? Do you know what happens when that signal is amplified until it clips? It gets cut off squarely.

Do you know what happens when you play a speaker with a clipped signal due to a low powered amp?

Let me know what you come up with. It's a purely a physics thing...and yes, you can destroy it just as easily with too little power than you can with too much. By trying to turn up the underpowered amp/HU you clip the signal which then pretty much destroys the speaker. With too much power, you have to crank it up to the point of mechanical failure. Only an idiot will turn up a high powered system without knowing what will happen. But how many people do you know that turns up the system until it distorts? Not mechanical distortion, but electrical (clipped signal) distortion.
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Old 06-09-2009, 07:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sooner07 View Post
They will have crossovers that reduces the power seen by the individual drivers, which can be off set by providing more up front power.. This is hard to accomplish with a HU's meager amplification chip.


really...you need to explain this one a bit more...

I wasn't aware that crossovers reduced power going to the speakers. Just how does this happen?
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBlueFan View Post
really...you need to explain this one a bit more...

I wasn't aware that crossovers reduced power going to the speakers. Just how does this happen?
The components within the crossover are not 100% efficient. They dissipate an appreciable amount directly to heat via resistance in the device itself. The amount depends on the individual components used.
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:27 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBlueFan View Post
ever see a sine wave on an o-scope? Do you know what happens when that signal is amplified until it clips? It gets cut off squarely.

Do you know what happens when you play a speaker with a clipped signal due to a low powered amp?

Let me know what you come up with. It's a purely a physics thing...and yes, you can destroy it just as easily with too little power than you can with too much. By trying to turn up the underpowered amp/HU you clip the signal which then pretty much destroys the speaker. With too much power, you have to crank it up to the point of mechanical failure. Only an idiot will turn up a high powered system without knowing what will happen. But how many people do you know that turns up the system until it distorts? Not mechanical distortion, but electrical (clipped signal) distortion.
I have seen an oscilloscope, and a clipped signal running through one. I have also plugged a 9v battery into a speaker and not blown it. This is because there is not enough wattage moving through the coils to burn them out. Typically, that is what power handling is measuring for the RMS portion. It is heat dissipation. A clipped signal alone will not destroy the speaker. You must also have too much power running though it. I am not saying that a clipped signal is the best thing in the world for speakers, but alone it will not cause the voice coil to over heat. Couple a clipped signal with more wattage than the voice coils can disappate, then you will have problems.
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:31 PM   #9
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To add to the last post, because I don't like editing posts; What will sometimes happen when you are pushing an amplifier too hard, you will get a spike in current. This can happen when the gains are turned up too high and you start introducing more distortion into the signal. But, as I stated before, it is not until you have more current moving though the voice coils than they can dissipate will you being having issues with blowing speakers.
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:34 PM   #10
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Oh, and I sure do like these electrical / physics debates. I think it is good for everyone to see the opposing opinions (as long as I am right in the end haha, joking ).

As long as everyone can keep it civil and provide rational arguments, it is all good information. Who knows, maybe I have been told wrong all these years. Let's just see what we can prove with physics backup.
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:38 PM   #11
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I am going to bed now. I'll check in tomorrow morning.
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Old 06-10-2009, 08:20 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sooner07 View Post
I have seen an oscilloscope, and a clipped signal running through one. I have also plugged a 9v battery into a speaker and not blown it. This is because there is not enough wattage moving through the coils to burn them out. Typically, that is what power handling is measuring for the RMS portion. It is heat dissipation. A clipped signal alone will not destroy the speaker. You must also have too much power running though it. I am not saying that a clipped signal is the best thing in the world for speakers, but alone it will not cause the voice coil to over heat. Couple a clipped signal with more wattage than the voice coils can disappate, then you will have problems.


I can't even muster the energy to try and respond to this...
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Old 06-10-2009, 10:40 AM   #13
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so...

So getting back on track...what are some good quality component systems that around $100 (keeping in mind that $ for amp will be another $100)?

Also, what good non components are out there? (6x9 or 6.5)

Btw- wouldn't we lose the tweeter if we put in 6x9 or 6.5" in?
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Old 06-10-2009, 10:53 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBlueFan View Post
I can't even muster the energy to try and respond to this...
It is hard to refute facts.
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Old 06-10-2009, 10:54 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UDCentaur View Post
So getting back on track...what are some good quality component systems that around $100 (keeping in mind that $ for amp will be another $100)?

Also, what good non components are out there? (6x9 or 6.5)

Btw- wouldn't we lose the tweeter if we put in 6x9 or 6.5" in?
Personally, I like Infinity Reference for the price. You would not lose the tweeter in either of those if you are going with a coaxial speaker ILO components.
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Old 06-10-2009, 12:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sooner07 View Post
It is hard to refute facts.
WHen you find them let me know.
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Old 06-10-2009, 12:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoBlueFan View Post
WHen you find them let me know.
Right under your nose, in every one of my posts.
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Old 06-10-2009, 12:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UDCentaur View Post
So getting back on track...what are some good quality component systems that around $100 (keeping in mind that $ for amp will be another $100)?

Also, what good non components are out there? (6x9 or 6.5)

Btw- wouldn't we lose the tweeter if we put in 6x9 or 6.5" in?



There are lots of decent components in that price range. Pick a reputable brand and find what they have at that price point. Your ears are the determining factor.

Again...pick a reputable brand, pick a price point and let your ears be the determining factor.

There are a few 6X9 component sets out there, Rockford, Clarion, MBQuart to name a few make them. You don't LOSE the tweeter if you do coaxial type speakers, just the ability to put it where you want to, and a cheaper crossover network for the speaker.
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Old 06-10-2009, 12:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sooner07 View Post
Right under your nose, in every one of my posts.

hardly.


First off, a clipped signal is the result of an amplifier trying to do too much. In a HU, this is MUCH easier to achieve as the user is cranking that poor thing up hoping to get more sound, only to be clipping the hell out of it and destroying the speakers in the process. The speaker will only play what it's given. This does not happen nearly as much with an amplified system unless you are just a dolt. Any distortion (clipping) is heard much sooner with an amplified system due to the volume that it happens at. By the time the HU distortion is heard (by most) it's already been doing it's damage and hence the destroyed speakers with low power.


I still have yet to wrap my head around your power reduction/crossover thingie...
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Old 06-10-2009, 01:53 PM   #20
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Funny, because it is the other way around for the rest of the scientific community as far as I know. I have yet to hear of a superconductor at room tempature.

You cannot have eletricity running through additional coils, capacitors, etc and not lose wattage (without the introduction of an external power source). Physically it is impossible with current technology.

I have no argument against a clipped signal being a result of an amp being pushed too hard. That is not what is going to destroy speakers. Please explain how it is going to do so, I am obviously in need of that education. If you think I am making my argument up, try putting a 9V battery on a speakers leads. You will get it to push straight out or pull straight in. You can leave it there and it will not burn up the coils or cause it to over extend. Those two issues are caused by putting too much power through the voice coils.

It is actually easier to destroy a speaker with excess clean power than not a lot of clipped power. As long as you are not exceeding the RMS power handling of the voice coils you are not going to break the speaker with a clipped signal.

Please explain how clipped signals are inherently bad for the speaker. What part of the speaker is going to break and why did it break is what I am looking for an explination.
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