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Old 12-13-2012, 06:21 AM   #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugga View Post
I dunno Jim, I thought about this situation some more and even if you were right, I don't know as if I'd want to leave my future in the hands of 12 people who are too stupid to get out of jury duty. I almost hate to say that but I've been selected for jury duty several times, gone in, they asked a ton of questions and the people who are left over aren't necessarily the people I'd want deciding my fate. Morally, I agree with the action you took but morals don't mean a damn thing in the courtroom. Lets say you actually do go to court, and win. You're still not off scott-free, the legal battle could end up being very expensive and could break someone financially. The prosecuting attorney is going to dig up as much dirt on you as he can get his hands on, your name could end up in the news (to someone younger with a career, this could be bad news I don't know about your current situation). In an instant, there's really no way to think about all the possible outcomes and hind sight is always 20-20 but I think your encounter could have very easily been extremely life changing.

My only hope now is that the father got rattled and will give a second thought to the way he treats his kid.
Thats the size of it in a nut shell.... And yes I have both had tears and prayed for that lil boy... Spank the boy on the butt with your hand And tell HIM not to take stuff that is not his... I would smile & look the other way..To scream what the fuck are you doing. then go outside and hit the kid so hard in the head he go's down.... God help me I just cant look the other way. Jim
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:31 AM   #562
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Let me clarify a few things for you with regards to stand your ground (in fl)

-A person has a right to intervene when a forcible felony is taking place. Example: Jim walks into the convenient store and its being robbed by a gunman. Jim pulls, and kills the robber. He is a hero. But that is NOT under the umbrella of 'stand your ground'. That is a lawful gun owner acting as a Good Samaritan and protecting himself- or on this case- another person from being the victim of a forcible felony.

Had you shot someone, you would not have a jury determine whether or not you stood your ground. That is determined by a state attorney who decides whether you should or should not be charged. Then, if charges are filed, your lawyer gets a hearing to request dismissal based on SYG.

You get arrested, get charged, and the judge denies your motion to dismiss- the jury can find you not guilty, on account of self defense- but at that point the SYG get out of jail free card is invalid.

In my opinion- had your situation unfolded, you would not have SYG to lean on. You may not have been arrested, but if you were, you would NOT be protected by SYG.

And where I come from in Florida you wouldn't have even had the sympathy of the cops- we encouraged people to spank their kids. I told at least a dozen parents that they wouldn't be picking their kid up from the police station- or having their kid openly disrespect them- if they laid a hand on them every now and then.

Remember that you're in Florida- it's legal to hit your kids. You're probably lucky things didn't escalate further, as I think that guy would've been seen as the victim and you the aggressor. If I was the responding officer, you'd probably be going for a ride.

Of course, if the guy is beating te ever-loving shit out of the kid, that's not discipline, it's abuse and battery. Whole different story

Just my .02
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:40 AM   #563
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Well I just read over this whole thread. A couple good instances where using your cc weapon may be justified, and some not. I am a gun owner, with multiple guns and a hunter. I respect the right to CC, but I think the need is exaggerated by fear.I do carry a Reminton 870 tactical in my truck, mostly in case I hit a deer or elk. Bad things happen every day in this country, and in some cases a trained individual with CC might be able to stop a bad situation. However I have to wonder about peoples training, mental well-being, situational awareness, and trigger happiness. For instance in the Portland mall shooting yesterday. If I had my Glock with me and heard shots, would I run and try to confront a shooter? Absolutely not. And in many cases I think someone could do more harm than good. I've read to be "proficient" with your weapon, you need to go to the range at least twice a week. I used to do that, but I don't think most CC holders do that. Well I think CC may provide some peace of mind, I think for 99% of gun owners its completely unnecessary. Having pepper spray with you, or a bat in the truck is more intimidating than most people think. Just my two cents.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:43 AM   #564
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Like what was said before - cooler heads prevail. In any situation where tempers flare it's never a good thing to act on that initial emotion ranging from arguing with our spouse to confronting a bully.

Pulling a gun changes the game forever. To me, that act should only occur when the threat of death occurs. I don't necessarily agree with Jim's actions but we can hope the bully-dad thought about his own actions later and made some personal adjustments. I would certainly contemplate a few things if I had a gun pulled on me because of my temper.

That said I have only one story. I was in uniform, in Macedonia, carrying a sidearm. Not concealed carry so maybe the story doesn't belong - but in traffic one day the girl driving our NATO SUV accidentally cut off a guy. He blocked us in downtown Skopje traffic and got out of his car. I got out as well. He raced to her window and started cussing her out - didn't speak any English. I kept my cool and pointed to the distance and calmly said over and over, "Go home". He looked at me and spoke his few English words, "F*ck you American!" and reached for his back pocket. I didn't see a huge bulge when his back was to me before so it was probably a knife he was going for. Still, I didn't wanna get stabbed and it WAS a threatening move so I placed my hand on my pistol and just stared at him. He slowly pulled his empty hand from his pocket back to his front, flipped me off, got in his car and drove away.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:42 AM   #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by river rat 69 View Post
Thats the size of it in a nut shell.... And yes I have both had tears and prayed for that lil boy... Spank the boy on the butt with your hand And tell HIM not to take stuff that is not his... I would smile & look the other way..To scream what the fuck are you doing. then go outside and hit the kid so hard in the head he go's down.... God help me I just cant look the other way. Jim
For the record I hope you did give that dude pause and he thinks twice before he lays a hand on his kid again. I saw a video of a Malaysian guy beating on his step son and I actually vomited. He was kicking, punching, slamming his kid for ten minutes straight. If I had been witness to that I probably would have shot the guy. No child deserves to be abused. So like I said I hope your actions, even though they were wrong, give this dude the fear of god for hitting his kid. Lord knows I wish I could have had someone step in on my behalf for some of the outright stompings my father bestowed upon my brow. Now if I was you I would not frequent that store again. You have urban knuckleheads that know you are armed now and one of them might have a vendetta. Be ever vigilant for the next few months.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:06 PM   #566
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With all the talk of SYG I figured I'd link this. Stand Your Ground has always been the law in Georgia... The author is a Georgia Attorney and board member of GeorgiaCarry.org

http://www.examiner.com/article/stan...he-law-georgia



Quote:
..........One problem with the arguments being presented is that they have their state history wrong. There has never been a duty to retreat in the entire history of Georgia, including when it was an English colony. Roswell attorney John Monroe points to the 1898 Supreme Court case of Glover v. State, 105 Ga. 597, which held that a person who is not at fault in initiating violence "may, without retreating, take human life" if he is acting to keep a felony from being committed upon him. A person who is at fault, however, in initiating the violence, must retreat. "One who is himself to blame, however, has not the same right of standing his ground . . ."
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:14 AM   #567
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Seems very complex and simple at the same time.

Simple: Jim saw an injustice taking place. (some asshole taking his anger out on the kid) He said/yelled "Hey what the hell is wrong with you?" (i would have yelled it) The asshole then directs his anger at Jim, someone that has the ability to forcefully defend himself. (justification not withstanding) Jim pulls his piece as an indication of his willingness defend himself. (i would have done the same thing with a few choice words... something like "You blankety blank should stop taking your anger out on your kid because the next person to see you do it might not be as friendly as me" you know something John Wayne would say) The situation deescalates and no one is hurt except for the kid. (i say "hurt" because it remains to be seen if he was "harmed")

Complex: Striking a child in the head is NOT discipline but abuse. I fell on my head enough when i was young to know that it hurts A LOT and if that type of pain had been caused by someone in anger, i wouldn't be the same person i am today. In human history, striking the cranium has never been an acceptable from of corporal punishment.

Regardless of Jim's justification in pulling his weapon, once it was pulled, if the asshole had rushed him or tried to take the weapon from him, or pretty much tried anything other than getting back in his vehicle to leave, Jim would have been obliged to kneecap him at the VERY least. If you have a gun pointed at you terms like 'probable cause' and 'jury' have no business being in your thought process. If you escalate the situation, you are forcing the other person to shoot you and in all probability kill you. And you'd deserve it, regardless of your emotions or what's justified. It's in the same vein as 'not complying with the orders of a police officer'. If the asshole had stuck around and waited for the police, he MAY have been justified in having Jim charged with 'assault with a deadly weapon' and if Jim had shot him, he MAY have been justified in killing the asshole. In both cases guilt would been determined by a jury of his "peers". If the justice system worked in the way it is supposed to Jim would be acquitted in both cases regardless of who had the moral high ground. (I believe that Jim had it.)

That being said, I'm pretty certain that in reality Jim would have been found guilty of something because, as stated by others, I have NO confidence what-so-ever in a modern group of "peers". And Jim, even if you had shot and killed him and been acquitted you would have had to deal with the the fact that you took a kid's father from him, justified or not. That's a weight i don't think i could bear.

It could have just as easily gone bad for Jim if he didn't have his piece. The guy might have grabbed Jim and beat him to death while everyone in the store just watched, and we'd be mourning the loss of a very helpful member of the TW community. I'm glad the situation deescalated without incident, because I would have done pretty much the same thing, Jim.

Good discussion and pretty respectful. Keep it up guys
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:24 AM   #568
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I do respect that Jim stood up for the child. Not many people would have done that.
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:44 PM   #570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OffroadToy View Post
Another case of brass and copper balls. If he never was armed he would never have said shit to those kids I guarantee you. Dude is just a plain old murderer.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:44 AM   #571
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http://youtu.be/iD52IxplEoM

This should be all over the news but of course it's not
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:01 PM   #572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TacoTabe View Post
Let me clarify a few things for you with regards to stand your ground (in fl)

-A person has a right to intervene when a forcible felony is taking place. Example: Jim walks into the convenient store and its being robbed by a gunman. Jim pulls, and kills the robber. He is a hero. But that is NOT under the umbrella of 'stand your ground'. That is a lawful gun owner acting as a Good Samaritan and protecting himself- or on this case- another person from being the victim of a forcible felony.

Had you shot someone, you would not have a jury determine whether or not you stood your ground. That is determined by a state attorney who decides whether you should or should not be charged. Then, if charges are filed, your lawyer gets a hearing to request dismissal based on SYG.

You get arrested, get charged, and the judge denies your motion to dismiss- the jury can find you not guilty, on account of self defense- but at that point the SYG get out of jail free card is invalid.

In my opinion- had your situation unfolded, you would not have SYG to lean on. You may not have been arrested, but if you were, you would NOT be protected by SYG.

And where I come from in Florida you wouldn't have even had the sympathy of the cops- we encouraged people to spank their kids. I told at least a dozen parents that they wouldn't be picking their kid up from the police station- or having their kid openly disrespect them- if they laid a hand on them every now and then.

Remember that you're in Florida- it's legal to hit your kids. You're probably lucky things didn't escalate further, as I think that guy would've been seen as the victim and you the aggressor. If I was the responding officer, you'd probably be going for a ride.

Of course, if the guy is beating te ever-loving shit out of the kid, that's not discipline, it's abuse and battery. Whole different story

Just my .02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChewbacaTW View Post
Seems very complex and simple at the same time.

Simple: Jim saw an injustice taking place. (some asshole taking his anger out on the kid) He said/yelled "Hey what the hell is wrong with you?" (i would have yelled it) The asshole then directs his anger at Jim, someone that has the ability to forcefully defend himself. (justification not withstanding) Jim pulls his piece as an indication of his willingness defend himself. (i would have done the same thing with a few choice words... something like "You blankety blank should stop taking your anger out on your kid because the next person to see you do it might not be as friendly as me" you know something John Wayne would say) The situation escalates and no one is hurt except for the kid. (i say "hurt" because it remains to be seen if he was "harmed")

Complex: Striking a child in the head is NOT discipline but abuse. I fell on my head enough when i was young to know that it hurts A LOT and if that type of pain had been caused by someone in anger, i wouldn't be the same person i am today. In human history, striking the cranium has never been an acceptable from of corporal punishment.

Regardless of Jim's justification in pulling his weapon, once it was pulled, if the asshole had rushed him or tried to take the weapon from him, or pretty much tried anything other than getting back in his vehicle to leave, Jim would have been obliged to kneecap him at the VERY least. If you have a gun pointed at you terms like 'probable cause' and 'jury' have no business being in your thought process. If you escalate the situation, you are forcing the other person to shoot you and in all probability kill you. And you'd deserve it, regardless of your emotions or what's justified. It's in the same vein as 'not complying with the orders of a police officer'. If the asshole had stuck around and waited for the police, he MAY have been justified in having Jim charged with 'assault with a deadly weapon' and if Jim had shot him, he MAY have been justified in killing the asshole. In both cases guilt would been determined by a jury of his "peers". If the justice system worked in the way it is supposed to Jim would be acquitted in both cases regardless of who had the moral high ground. (I believe that Jim had it.)

That being said, I'm pretty certain that in reality Jim would have been found guilty of something because, as stated by others, I have NO confidence what-so-ever in a modern group of "peers". And Jim, even if you had shot and killed him and been acquitted you would have had to deal with the the fact that you took a kid's father from him, justified or not. That's a weight i don't think i could bear.

It could have just as easily gone bad for Jim if he didn't have his piece. The guy might have grabbed Jim and beat him to death while everyone in the store just watched, and we'd be mourning the loss of a very helpful member of the TW community. I'm glad the situation deescalated without incident, because I would have done pretty much the same thing, Jim.

Good discussion and pretty respectful. Keep it up guys
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenobe View Post
I do respect that Jim stood up for the child. Not many people would have done that.
Thanks the lil boy was what it was all about... I do really hope that dad has roller what happened around in his head like I have
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:10 AM   #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Taco Sucio View Post
http://youtu.be/iD52IxplEoM

This should be all over the news but of course it's not
Surprise surprise, when one of these sick fucks gets confronted by an armed citizen, he blows his head off. This is a normal reaction and why these sick fucks don't choose police stations and rifle ranges to carry out their rampages.
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