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Which Was Worse: Iran/Contra or Operation ‘Fast and Furious’?

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Old 07-28-2011, 08:10 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by sammy87 View Post
My take on the Iran/Contra scandal was that some bad was done to help some good. The spread of Communism in the western hemisphere was a direct threat to national security. Imagine if from Panama to Mexico became destabalized and turned to communist movements. I'm sure there are similar deals with Pakistan that have been going on for years that we don't know about.

The "war on drugs" has always been a complete waste of tax payer money and time, and gun runner is another example of how messed up it is. Here you have the ATF and DEA helping in this fight, yet they are the ones giving guns to the bad guys. From what I know about this deal is basically we are giving weapons to the people we are fighting. Those border towns are really messed up and it has spread onto our side. Id like to know how high up the druglords have infiltrated on our side as well. Part of me feels like this whole thing is a way to not deal with the immigration problem and getting latino votes. I also find it interesting to see how quiet the media is about this scandal. I have friends who worship Obama and have never heard of this scandal.

I think a lot more will come out sometime next yr when the election heats up.
Good read is all true. I also want to see how high this goes???
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Old 07-28-2011, 01:53 PM   #22
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I'm getting really tired of the feds picking on my state.

Also, Packer... If your summary of what's happening across the border is correct, then I smell the beginnings of human rights violations by the drug-lords. Maybe in it's attempt to find an excuse to pick on us gun toting freaks, they may have (either inadvertently or purposefully, you decide) feed a situation that will grow into a legitimate excuse to send the UN in. If things get bad enough then no country is going to object to us helping the mexican people with our army under a UN flag.

food for thought
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Old 07-28-2011, 02:59 PM   #23
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I think 'Fast and Furious' was a failed attempt to get American guns into Mexico so they could blame gun stores, manufacturers and straw purchasers in order to pass anti-2A legislation. To me, it seems obvious.
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Old 07-28-2011, 03:08 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by OZ-T View Post
Even though it meant arming Iran

Arming countries and then going to war with them is kind of our thing. You may have noticed.

We sold Iraq an awful lot of shit in the 80s when we wanted them as a bulwark against Iran, before we started blowing them up in the 90s and present.

Sizeable list of other countries with brown people that we used to sell arms to and now just fire arms into.

Bein' a hegemon ain't easy...


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Originally Posted by ChewbacaTW View Post
then I smell the beginnings of human rights violations by the drug-lords.
You...they...I'm not sure they're terribly concerned about that. What with the war-zone they've turned Mexico


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Originally Posted by sammy87 View Post
I have friends who worship Obama and have never heard of this scandal.

I think a lot more will come out sometime next yr when the election heats up.

It's not a scandal. People have to care for it to be a scandal. No one cares about this except a couple people on the internet.
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Old 07-28-2011, 03:49 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by jandrews View Post
You...they...I'm not sure they're terribly concerned about that. What with the war-zone they've turned Mexico
Give it another year or 2 at the current rate of decay and we'll be bordering another Somalia. If no one starts screaming bloody murder about that then I truly will lose faith in the human rights movement and start referring to them as the same fickle mob that many people in this world are members of.
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Old 07-28-2011, 03:55 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ChewbacaTW View Post
Give it another year or 2 at the current rate of decay and we'll be bordering another Somalia.
True. Canada is really going downhill these days.

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If no one starts screaming bloody murder about that then I truly will lose faith in the human rights movement and start referring to them as the same fickle mob that many people in this world are members of.
Maybe I'm confused...you're saying we should do something about crime in Mexico? I'm more of the opinion Mexico should do something about crime in Mexico.
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Old 07-28-2011, 04:13 PM   #27
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Talking

When I was a teenager in Austin, I used to travel to border towns all the time with my friends... everyone did... for Spring Break, or just for the hell of it. Today, I don't even venture south of San Antonio. Here in SA, you hear about the cartels, Mexican mafia, etc., committing crimes along the border and even here in town. Lots of movement and ties in this community and all along the I-35 corridor.

It's too bad, even the border towns used to be a fun place to go. Not anymore... every government office/agency and even the military is corrupt. I have many friends/neighbors from Mexico and a lot still have family there. Most wouldn't think of traveling to Mexico at this point. That includes the coastal resorts cities where crime against tourists is at an all time high. Mexico is doomed.

I do not think for a second we should embroil our military/nation in the politics and corruption in Mexico. They are a lost cause and until the citizens of Mexico stand up and fight back, we should keep our hands off. We should just secure our borders because the violence is clearly spilling over our borders. We should bring our troops back from Afghanistan and put them on our borders (at least our Southern border as I still think Canadians are an OK crowd).

As far as this "Fast and Furious stuff" goes, I bet AG Holder knew all about it... but of course, that's just my opinion. I also believe our beloved Justice Dept and it's subordinate agencies are currently working in a variety of ways to build a case to restrict <legal> firearms sales in the US. Ultimately, severely crippling our 2A rights.
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Old 07-28-2011, 06:24 PM   #28
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I was stationed at San Antonio and Del Rio a few yrs back. All we heard about was how bad the border towns were. It really sucked. I think we should secure that border and fix our immigration policy. Mexico is too corrupt, I'd hate to see more tax dollars just fly away to another shitty country. We've done well in Columbia, but their gov't was willing to put their foot down on the crap. But only after Escobar was killed. Mexico could very easily turn into a modern day version of 70's/80's Columbia.

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Originally Posted by rleeharris View Post
When I was a teenager in Austin, I used to travel to border towns all the time with my friends... everyone did... for Spring Break, or just for the hell of it. Today, I don't even venture south of San Antonio. Here in SA, you hear about the cartels, Mexican mafia, etc., committing crimes along the border and even here in town. Lots of movement and ties in this community and all along the I-35 corridor.

It's too bad, even the border towns used to be a fun place to go. Not anymore... every government office/agency and even the military is corrupt. I have many friends/neighbors from Mexico and a lot still have family there. Most wouldn't think of traveling to Mexico at this point. That includes the coastal resorts cities where crime against tourists is at an all time high. Mexico is doomed.

I do not think for a second we should embroil our military/nation in the politics and corruption in Mexico. They are a lost cause and until the citizens of Mexico stand up and fight back, we should keep our hands off. We should just secure our borders because the violence is clearly spilling over our borders. We should bring our troops back from Afghanistan and put them on our borders (at least our Southern border as I still think Canadians are an OK crowd).

As far as this "Fast and Furious stuff" goes, I bet AG Holder knew all about it... but of course, that's just my opinion. I also believe our beloved Justice Dept and it's subordinate agencies are currently working in a variety of ways to build a case to restrict <legal> firearms sales in the US. Ultimately, severely crippling our 2A rights.
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Old 07-28-2011, 10:53 PM   #29
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True. Canada is really going downhill these days.




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Originally Posted by jandrews View Post
Maybe I'm confused...you're saying we should do something about crime in Mexico? I'm more of the opinion Mexico should do something about crime in Mexico.
I think it's pretty clear that Mexican law enforcement haven't the means or the desire to fight the cartels.

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Originally Posted by rleeharris View Post
They are a lost cause and until the citizens of Mexico stand up and fight back.
They are too poor and too under armed to fight back. Their government took all their guns away which is why the cartels have to get them from the US. The Mexican people haven't the means or the desire to fight the cartels.

Just leaving them to fend for themselves is neither the compassionate nor the correct course of action to deal with this problem. We've helped Libyans, Bosnians, Nicaraguans, Iraqi's, Afganistani's, Vietnamese, Chinese(Taiwanese now), Koreans, French, English... and so on. Why not Mexicans?
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:17 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ChewbacaTW View Post
We've "helped" Libyans, Bosnians, Nicaraguans, Iraqi's, Afganistani's, Vietnamese, Chinese(Taiwanese now), Koreans, French, English... and so on. Why not Mexicans?
When we don't get involved in another country's affairs, there are only three possible reasons:

1) No money for contractors who are friends of highly placed government officials to make.
2) No oil.
3) No Jews.

Mexico's cheap labor is already coming here. The money's being made. No reason for us to get involved as far as the corporate interests see it.
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:19 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by PeteH View Post
The BATFE allows guns to walk into Mexico, where they kill at least one BP Officer, then the Obama led Justice Dept. uses the fallout as a reason to try new "executive order" gun control measures and also try to blame the whole mess on law abiding citizens, US manufacturers, and boarder state gun shops.
Iran/Contra, as I remember it, was a bad way to fund the "good guys".
F&F was designed to be a direct attack on our 2A Rights through lies and corruption
X2!
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Old 07-29-2011, 07:31 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by jandrews View Post
When we don't get involved in another country's affairs, there are only three possible reasons:

1) No money for contractors who are friends of highly placed government officials to make.
2) No oil.
3) No Jews.

Mexico's cheap labor is already coming here. The money's being made. No reason for us to get involved as far as the corporate interests see it.


You nailed every libtard talking point. Nice regurgitation
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Old 07-29-2011, 07:44 AM   #33
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Nothing happens without a reason.
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Old 07-29-2011, 07:57 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChewbacaTW View Post






I think it's pretty clear that Mexican law enforcement haven't the means or the desire to fight the cartels.



They are too poor and too under armed to fight back. Their government took all their guns away which is why the cartels have to get them from the US. The Mexican people haven't the means or the desire to fight the cartels.

Just leaving them to fend for themselves is neither the compassionate nor the correct course of action to deal with this problem. We've helped Libyans, Bosnians, Nicaraguans, Iraqi's, Afganistani's, Vietnamese, Chinese(Taiwanese now), Koreans, French, English... and so on. Why not Mexicans?
OK, I'm certainly open to ideas--I certainly would prefer Mexico to be stable considering they're our neighbors to the south and I happen to live in a border state (as do you). If you believe our government/military should do something, what course of action would you suggest? If the Mexican government and military is part of the problem, how do we act? How do we support the people in Mexico without declaring war on Mexico itself for the government is riddled with cartel-puppets and other narco enablers.

As for our embroilment with other nation's struggles, infighting, and civil wars, for the most part, I find our involvement to be driven by the elite for power and wealth, unproductive, and frankly none of our business. This includes the current absurdity in Libya. I subscribe to George Washington's warning in his farewell address to our nation when he cautioned us to "beware of foreign entanglements." I believe in non-interventionism. State-sanctioned genocide being the exception where we should intervene for the sake of humanity. I do not believe in nation building, international policing, or generally putting our nose in another nation's affairs. BTW, I believe the U.N. to be a worthless corrupt organization filled with power-brokers and elitists.

L:et me wrap this up as I got off on a tangent: Personally, I love the Mexico I once knew and the people are a good people. As I stated, many of my friends/neighbors are immigrants. But like all oppressed people, they can either go one of two ways: submit or revolt. So I ask again, what is your suggested course of action?
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Old 07-29-2011, 08:04 AM   #35
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Old 07-29-2011, 08:05 AM   #36
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^ for starters...
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Old 07-29-2011, 08:52 AM   #37
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Hold the ph.. I think I got it,Lets annex Mexico & Canada. We can use the Mexicans to drill for oil and take out the timber from Canada and sell them To China to get out of the $ hole we are in. Then when the un bitches we can move them to France and send them a cruse missile with a nuke on it. Jim for Prez...
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Old 07-29-2011, 08:55 AM   #38
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^ Now that's a plan I can get behind. Hilarious!
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Old 07-29-2011, 09:04 AM   #39
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Im waiting on a PM from a mod right about now.. Jim
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:25 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by jandrews View Post
True. Canada is really going downhill these days.



Maybe I'm confused...you're saying we should do something about crime in Mexico? I'm more of the opinion Mexico should do something about crime in Mexico.
this

Quote:
Originally Posted by river rat 69 View Post
Hold the ph.. I think I got it,Lets annex Mexico & Canada. We can use the Mexicans to drill for oil and take out the timber from Canada and sell them To China to get out of the $ hole we are in. Then when the un bitches we can move them to France and send them a cruse missile with a nuke on it. Jim for Prez...
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