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Which Was Worse: Iran/Contra or Operation ‘Fast and Furious’?

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Old 07-29-2011, 01:43 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by rleeharris View Post
OK, I'm certainly open to ideas--I certainly would prefer Mexico to be stable considering they're our neighbors to the south and I happen to live in a border state (as do you). If you believe our government/military should do something, what course of action would you suggest? If the Mexican government and military is part of the problem, how do we act? How do we support the people in Mexico without declaring war on Mexico itself for the government is riddled with cartel-puppets and other narco enablers.

As for our embroilment with other nation's struggles, infighting, and civil wars, for the most part, I find our involvement to be driven by the elite for power and wealth, unproductive, and frankly none of our business. This includes the current absurdity in Libya. I subscribe to George Washington's warning in his farewell address to our nation when he cautioned us to "beware of foreign entanglements." I believe in non-interventionism. State-sanctioned genocide being the exception where we should intervene for the sake of humanity. I do not believe in nation building, international policing, or generally putting our nose in another nation's affairs. BTW, I believe the U.N. to be a worthless corrupt organization filled with power-brokers and elitists.

L:et me wrap this up as I got off on a tangent: Personally, I love the Mexico I once knew and the people are a good people. As I stated, many of my friends/neighbors are immigrants. But like all oppressed people, they can either go one of two ways: submit or revolt. So I ask again, what is your suggested course of action?
I don't disagree with you on any particular point. (Just to be clear, this discussion was meant to be purely academic.) That being said, without giving it a few weeks of serious planning an thought I think that we could do what i had originally considered. Send in the US Army under a UN flag in the name of human rights, just like somalia or bosnia.

I'm not saying that it's necessarily the best course of action. What I am saying is that i think it's better than doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by river rat 69 View Post
A 20 foot high wall with gun towers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jim
No opposed to this idea either. I just wish someone would DO SOMETHING and try it for a decade or so to see if it works before they decide whether it works or not.

This is why we try to keep the military hierarchy and command structure set apart from politicians. (Even if only at a superficial level.) It's helps to free the hands of the admirals and generals and conduct themselves how they see fit by DOING SOMETHING... ANYTHING... as opposed to just sitting around and waiting for a panel of public servants to decide what the "best" course of action is... Which usually leads to idiotic ideas like "project gun runner" and so on.

Opinion alert: Regardless of what "Project gun runner" was "intended" to do IE take our guns away or whatever. It only addressed the side effect and not the problem. The Problem is the Cartel's. Do SOMETHING about them. Send the UN in, or the army, or have the navy launch some cruise missiles at their compounds. DO SOMETHING!!! But do it to the cartels, not US citizens.
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Old 07-29-2011, 02:46 PM   #42
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I was watching Pierce Morgan last night, he interviewed Vicente Fox (former Mexico President) Fox's idea to stop the border violence was to legalize drugs in the US. It's an interisting idea in theory it might work but I dont think it's practical. He blamed the US for Mexico's problems which I think is bullshit.

I dont know what the solution is but what were doing now isnt working. Mexico needs to get their shit together. Make being an illegal alien, ILLEGAL, have a worker pass for those that want to work, we do need Mexican labor in this counrty.

What's interesting is that Mexico's southern border is on lockdown. They do what they can to keep the Guatamaleans out.
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Old 07-30-2011, 07:14 PM   #43
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I didn't realize the Mexicans had a problem with the guatamalens.
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:02 PM   #44
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You nailed every libtard talking point. Nice regurgitation
What's regurgitated? Those are the reasons we get involved in foreign affairs - economics and military posturing. It's called protecting our interests, and it's what every country does. Some of them are allowed to be more naked about doing it because they have nuclear weapons. We happen to be one of those countries.

The distinction of the politics tends to be whether or not you think these things are wrong or right. I don't give half a flying fuck, though your flippant response would suggest that you inferred I think they're wrong. That would be an incorrect inference if in fact it is one you made.

I don't much care *why* those are the incentives that dictate our foreign policy, but they *are* the incentives that dictate our foreign policy. That is plain and simple for anyone who can read and is smart enough to consult actual sources of information rather than those dipshits in the mass media. To claim otherwise is willful ignorance at best, desperation at worst.

Now don't go labeling me in some easy political category, because:

1) Whatever you're thinking you know about my political views, you're wrong. They're much more complex than that.

2) Forum policy prohibits political discussion.

So this post has hopefully been informative for you. Regardless of that, it has put information out there without making a political statement or taking "sides", such as they can exist, in politics. I'm hoping the mods take notice, for convenience, because I'd like to avoid PMs about forum rules I'm already aware of.

Thanks, have a good evening.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rleeharris View Post
^ for starters...

The gun tower idea, if tongue in cheek, is actually probably in the top 5 candidates in terms of realistic and practical approaches.

Now, you have to convince the moralists and philosophers who would claim it's wrong to let a country and culture destroy itself because the economics of cocaine are more appealing. My solution for these people and the Mexican drug-violence issue is identical: Live a good distance away and ignore them.


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Originally Posted by sammy87 View Post
I was watching Pierce Morgan last night, he interviewed Vicente Fox (former Mexico President) Fox's idea to stop the border violence was to legalize drugs in the US. It's an interisting idea in theory it might work but I dont think it's practical. He blamed the US for Mexico's problems which I think is bullshit.
It's an idea with a lot of merit on the economics side. The drug cartels are at war because whoever ships the most drugs makes the most money. If the US government suddenly offered tax breaks to the US private sector to start mass producing popular street drugs and distributing them in a regulated fashion (think alcohol, cigarettes....you know, drugs we have ALREADY legalized), it would be quite easy to price the Mexican cartels right out of the market.

The question then becomes whether or not they would turn to some other illicit activity with a high profit margin. My bet is on yes.

So while legalization would probably stop them from killing one another (and innocent bystanders) over drug money, it probably wouldn't stop them from killing on another (and innocent bystanders) over some damn kind of money.

The idea that the "US is responsible for Mexico's problems" hinges around the fact that we buy most of the drugs these cartels produce. That's accurate. The problem is created because these Mexicans cannot produce something legal with the same risk/reward ratio. If they could make coke-money building and selling couches to Americans, they would. But they can't. Because we make couches here, and they're cheaper. Remember last paragraph?

(disclaimer: the couch analogy is actually inaccurate. We don't make them cheaper here. We make them in China and ship them here, which is cheaper than making them here. The takeaway to remember is that Mexican-made couches don't pay as well as cocaine smuggling if you're a Mexican peasant. Most of you probably knew that already.)

Quote:
Mexico needs to get their shit together.
They have it together. Just not the way we would prefer they have it together. By that, I mean that the majority of their law enforcement, government officials, and armed forces are on the payroll or in some other way incentivized or coerced by drug cartels. They're all playing for one team, just not ours.
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:01 PM   #45
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A.G. holder to go before the hill. what did he know and when did he know it.. Hope he reads the memo's before he goes. anyone see how quite the news has been on this. whats up with that??? Jim
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:10 PM   #46
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We can stop the drug problem in Mexico very, very simply. All we have to do is make closing down the cartels a condition of continued economic relations with Mexico. All the manufacturers using the cheap Mexican labor to produce their products will then put enough pressure on the Mexican government to end the cartels. Money talks.
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:17 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by river rat 69 View Post
A.G. holder to go before the hill. what did he know and when did he know it.. Hope he reads the memo's before he goes. anyone see how quite the news has been on this. whats up with that??? Jim
I've been watching. I hope EH and anyone else that has to do with this is held accountable.
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:22 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by PackerfanXD View Post
I've been watching. I hope EH and anyone else that has to do with this is held accountable.
I think eh is gone but it will take some time & thats as far up as it will go ,too bad!!! Jim
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Old 10-06-2011, 02:13 PM   #51
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You're probably right but I'm secretly hoping for an impeachment...
I hope this happens too, but in the end they will probably weasel out.
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Old 10-06-2011, 04:35 PM   #52
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DC Dont work like that too many little dogs to throw under the bus...
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Old 10-06-2011, 04:43 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDCPA View Post
We can stop the drug problem in Mexico very, very simply. All we have to do is make closing down the cartels a condition of continued economic relations with Mexico. All the manufacturers using the cheap Mexican labor to produce their products will then put enough pressure on the Mexican government to end the cartels. Money talks.

or we could decriminalize here...when the drugs are legalized there would be no incentive to grow huge crops of plants for a minimal profit when they could grow other things...no one would be shot protecting their turf here to sell drugs because you could open a real smoke shop etc

when was the last time that you heard about budwiser and yuengling shooting it out in the street over their turf?? you havent because they are free to sell without government intervention at least since prohibition and that surely didnt work out at all. at the federal level congress has no power to ban any drugs they had to amend the constitution just to ban booze...where is the one that banned drugs?
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Old 10-06-2011, 08:32 PM   #54
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CBS news reporter says White House screamed, swore at her over Fast and Furious


CBS News investigative journalist Sharyl Attkisson -- who's been covering the scandal from the beginning -- says in an interview on the Laura Ingraham Show today that the White House and Justice Department have taken to screaming at her for reporting on the story.


Read About It:
The Weekly Standard


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Old 10-07-2011, 05:46 AM   #55
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I wish more coverage would be on this situation, for whatever reason there isnt, which is pretty sad.

I think legalizing weed is one thing, all drugs I'm not sure about. I read somewhere that weed is mostly us grown and most of the Mexican gangs deal with coke. Either way I would like to see something done, the latest of the bodies hanging from the bridge is pretty messed up. And they were just bloggers.
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Old 10-07-2011, 03:52 PM   #56
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when was the last time that you heard about budwiser and yuengling shooting it out in the street over their turf?? you havent because they are free to sell without government intervention at least since prohibition.
Pretty sure that you need a license to brew or sell anything alcoholic. (IE pay a tax)
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Old 10-07-2011, 04:09 PM   #57
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Pretty sure that you need a license to brew or sell anything alcoholic. (IE pay a tax)

yes..but i mean intervention as in being forced into a black market...
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:54 AM   #58
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Looks like this is getting pretty nasty, Eric Holder is expected to be subpoena. I was watching the news this morning and the DOJ rep was basically blaming Bush for everything as typical. Honestly I still don't know all the exact details of this operation or how the druglords got the guns.
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Old 10-11-2011, 05:48 AM   #59
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It going to get good now. The hot oil is being heated..So long eh it been fun but its over for you...
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:06 PM   #60
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Holder downplays Fast and Furious as not 'important,' walks out on reporters asking about investigation


Although several members of Congress have now called on Attorney General Eric Holder to resign over Operation Fast and Furious, he appeared to dismiss the congressional investigation into the program as not "important" when reporters asked about it on Tuesday.


Read About It:
The Daily Caller


Posted:
10/12/2011 8:59:50 AM
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