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Old 05-04-2013, 08:12 PM   #21
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So they can't open carry hand guns in Texas?

 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:13 PM   #22
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All he has to do is let the officer get to the bottom of the situation, make sure the gun isn't stolen and the guy's not a felon and get his shit back.
The gun is a piece of personal property.

If you saw me driving down the road with a motorcycle in the back of my Tacoma, would you pull me over to make sure the motorcycle is not stolen and that I don't have any outstanding warrants?

Carrying a gun or a motorcycle in a legal manner is not probable cause for a detainment.
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:13 PM   #23
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Shall-issue for concealed carry, but Texas is not an open-carry state for handguns.
Texas is Texas, but the residents are not used to seeing people carrying guns unless they are hunting.

Shouldn't matter, should it? Man carrying a gun? Is he acting in a threatening manner? Is he pointing it at anyone? We'll send an officer out to check on things....at that point the officer should have done a drive by, waved and rolled on....

Once he lunged at the guy to push him and grab for his gun he "inflamed" a non-situation.
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:17 PM   #24
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So they can't open carry hand guns in Texas?

Nope.

That was the compromise offered for shall-issue CCW.

Texas is not QUITE Constitutional Carry, as residents need a permit, but the law does allow for concealed carry without a permit "while traveling" and this applies to all.

It boils down to the definition of "travel"... an out of stater would certainly be legal within the letter and spirit of the law. A resident heading from Austin to an outlet mall near San Antonio? Maybe, maybe not... but with CCW easy to get, there's no need for a resident to push the limits.
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:20 PM   #25
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Shouldn't matter, should it? Man carrying a gun? Is he acting in a threatening manner? Is he pointing it at anyone? We'll send an officer out to check on things....at that point the officer should have done a drive by, waved and rolled on....

Once he lunged at the guy to push him and grab for his gun he "inflamed" a non-situation.
I agree.

My point was the impetus for the 911 call in the first place.
People who are not gun owners (and most gun owners for that matter) are not familiar with the gun laws of their own states.
Even my wife will frequently look at a gun that she is not familiar with and comment "That's legal????"
Uhh... if it wasn't legal, I don't think it would be on the shelf at Turner's.
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:20 PM   #26
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... there's no need for a resident to push the limits.
If he's totally within his legal rights, how is he pushing the limits? That's the big problem with this and many other carry confrontations....the officers responding don't seem to be really familiar with the law....not saying that all of the situations are like that but this guy was not pushing any limits...then he got pushed as the officer grabbed for his gun without warning. That should have never happened...
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:23 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
The gun is a piece of personal property.

If you saw me driving down the road with a motorcycle in the back of my Tacoma, would you pull me over to make sure the motorcycle is not stolen and that I don't have any outstanding warrants?

Carrying a gun or a motorcycle in a legal manner is not probable cause for a detainment.
I can run your plate, I don't have to stop you to see if its stolen. You could be driving the motorcycle following all traffic laws but have a suspended license yes?

If all aspects of this encounter are true, it was handled poorly on both sides. Just because someone is carrying a gun, you don't automatically draw down on them. It should be a consensual citizen contact but regardless It puts you on high alert.

But think about it...I come up, you're carrying an AR-15 and a pistol walking down a paved road. I ask you, "hey during the course of this contact, for your safety and mine, I'm going to ask you to take off the weapons, they will be unloaded and placed them in my patrol car. Upon completion of this contact, I will give them back to you if I find that you are a legal gun owner." Would this have been a better way to handle the situation?

If you are all pissed, overly agitated, and spouting off about rights and digging in your pockets for stuff, it just makes things difficult.

I have NO CLUE what I'm rolling up on when I get dispatched to a person with a gun call...everything runs through my mind.
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:23 PM   #28
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Rich - I noticed you're from CA...I can't imagine you guys have many carry confrontations out there...is open carry legal there? ...and I don't know what a Turners is.... ;-)
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:25 PM   #29
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If he's totally within his legal rights, how is he pushing the limits?
Nononono... I wasn't referring to this situation, and I agree that he was not pushing any limits.

I was referring to a resident carrying concealed without a permit using the logic that "I'm driving my car and/or I am not at home, therefore I am traveling" since the penal code does not define what does and does not constitute "travel"
Example, when I visit my parents, I am carrying concealed in AZ and Texas, but once I get to the hotel, it goes back into the Gunvault until we're ready to leave for home.
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:26 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by KodiakToyTRD View Post
"hey during the course of this contact, for your safety and mine, I'm going to ask you to take off the weapons, they will be unloaded and placed them in my patrol car. Upon completion of this contact, I will give them back to you if I find that you are a legal gun owner."
I would have no problem complying with that, but that's not what I've read about this confrontation...after MSgt heeded the officer's request to stop, the officer reportedly lunged at him and pushed him while attempting to grab the rifle...without further verbal exchange...that's enough to make anyone recoil...
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by KodiakToyTRD View Post
I can run your plate, I don't have to stop you to see if its stolen. You could be driving the motorcycle following all traffic laws but have a suspended license yes?

If all aspects of this encounter are true, it was handled poorly on both sides. Just because someone is carrying a gun, you don't automatically draw down on them. It should be a consensual citizen contact but regardless It puts you on high alert.

But think about it...I come up, you're carrying an AR-15 and a pistol walking down a paved road. I ask you, "hey during the course of this contact, for your safety and mine, I'm going to ask you to take off the weapons, they will be unloaded and placed them in my patrol car. Upon completion of this contact, I will give them back to you if I find that you are a legal gun owner." Would this have been a better way to handle the situation?

If you are all pissed, overly agitated, and spouting off about rights and digging in your pockets for stuff, it just makes things difficult.

I have NO CLUE what I'm rolling up on when I get dispatched to a person with a gun call...everything runs through my mind.
I feel like that is a contradiction about how you can check a persons plates w/o stopping them and its ok, but you must stop someone to see that their permits/guns are ok.

If you saw a guy driving with a gun in a gun rack, you wouldnt stop him to check if he can legally have it, why doesnt the same principle follow on foot?
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:27 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
Nononono... I wasn't referring to this situation, and I agree that he was not pushing any limits.

I was referring to a resident carrying concealed without a permit using the logic that "I'm driving my car and/or I am not at home, therefore I am traveling" since the penal code does not define what does and does not constitute "travel"
Example, when I visit my parents, I am carrying concealed in AZ and Texas, but once I get to the hotel, it goes back into the Gunvault until we're ready to leave for home.

Gotcha...we on the same sheet-o-music...
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:29 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by m3bassman View Post
I feel like that is a contradiction about how you can check a persons plates w/o stopping them and its ok, but you must stop someone to see that their permits/guns are ok.

If you saw a guy driving with a gun in a gun rack, you wouldnt stop him to check if he can legally have it, why doesnt the same principle follow on foot?

Why do you even need to check? Is the person doing something wrong? Acting threateningly? That's the problem...

POSESSION of a gun - as long as you're complying with the law - should not draw ANY scrutiny....
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:29 PM   #34
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I would have no problem complying with that, but that's not what I've read about this confrontation...after MSgt heeded the officer's request to stop, the officer reportedly lunged at him and pushed him while attempting to grab the rifle...without further verbal exchange...that's enough to make anyone recoil...
Definitely!

But I think both sides of this story acted poorly, but isn't this why TW is here? So we can Monday morning QB citizen/police contact?
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:32 PM   #35
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Along the lines of my last comment, should we set up check points at parks to make sure everyone bringing their pets out there have them tagged I.A.W. local laws? Pets are supposed to be registered and tagged right? Same principle applies...
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:35 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KodiakToyTRD View Post
I can run your plate, I don't have to stop you to see if its stolen. You could be driving the motorcycle following all traffic laws but have a suspended license yes?

If all aspects of this encounter are true, it was handled poorly on both sides. Just because someone is carrying a gun, you don't automatically draw down on them. It should be a consensual citizen contact but regardless It puts you on high alert.

But think about it...I come up, you're carrying an AR-15 and a pistol walking down a paved road. I ask you, "hey during the course of this contact, for your safety and mine, I'm going to ask you to take off the weapons, they will be unloaded and placed them in my patrol car. Upon completion of this contact, I will give them back to you if I find that you are a legal gun owner." Would this have been a better way to handle the situation?

If you are all pissed, overly agitated, and spouting off about rights and digging in your pockets for stuff, it just makes things difficult.

I have NO CLUE what I'm rolling up on when I get dispatched to a person with a gun call...everything runs through my mind.
And from sitting here, I'd say that my reaction would be "Would you prefer that I unload them?"
But in reality, based on a couple of encounters I've had with the local PD, it wouldn't be that smooth, as when I get caught off guard by someone who has the authority to completely fuck up my weekend, I tend to get a bit nervous, which of course puts THEM on alert.

Walking home from the post office one evening, a younger officer pulled his car up near me and called out "You look familiar"
The pause was as if he expected a response... yet he didn't ask a question. I told him I was going home, he asked where "home" was, I pointed to my condo. I finally gained enough composure to ask "Did you go to Chino High School? Maybe you dated my daughter?"
He wasn't entertained by that. I got the line "You look like someone we're looking for" and he took off.
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:35 PM   #38
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:35 PM   #39
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I feel like that is a contradiction about how you can check a persons plates w/o stopping them and its ok, but you must stop someone to see that their permits/guns are ok.

If you saw a guy driving with a gun in a gun rack, you wouldnt stop him to check if he can legally have it, why doesnt the same principle follow on foot?
A person carrying a gun in a gun rack in a car is not PC to stop the car.

This was a reported issue, most likely as a suspicious person or suspicious activity that some citizen felt it was his place to call in a man walking down the road with a weapon that looked like an assault rifle.

In this case, the cops drove to the area, saw the described person and stopped to chat (if they drove by, the RP would have claimed the cops didn't do anything). The police officer appears to have handled the situation poorly and it went down the shitter from there.

If I see a person with a gun just walking down the road (not reported), I'll stop and chat to see what's up, but I will not lunge for his gun, that's asking for trouble.
 
Old 05-04-2013, 08:38 PM   #40
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And from sitting here, I'd say that my reaction would be "Would you prefer that I unload them?"
I would say no, because the person I'm dealing with, I don't know them at all...and they have the chance to begin to manipulate the weapon.

I hope this makes sense.
 
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