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Old 05-01-2013, 06:23 PM   #7021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Runner View Post
Have you seen these? Pigtail gas tubes to help with gas tube length on pistol uppers
http://phase5tactical.com/products/w...gtail-gas-tube-

It addresses half of the short barrel's problems. It'll soften the gas pulse each round, though it doesn't take care of the dwell time,
which is the distance from gas port to muzzle. Then it all comes down to port size. If I remember correctly a 7.5" with pistol gas
system is almost half the amount of dwell time as a 20" with rifle gas system. Less time for the action to receive gas, so it needs to be opened
up just enough to run reliably on low pressure ammo, ie store bought .223. Then there's buffer sizes, adds another variable.

More than I planned on writing, maybe someone else can benefit or be further confused.
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Old 05-01-2013, 08:18 PM   #7022
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fjfar80 View Post
I can put you in touch with Wes Grant, probably one of the best AR builders out there. He builds all of my AR uppers and he has completely figured out the challenges and nuances of running 7.5" barrels. He is not the cheapest but, he is the best. If you're on Facebook look him or his company (MSTN) up.

- Mark
Would appreciate any expertise for a PDW build

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Runner View Post
Have you seen these? Pigtail gas tubes to help with gas tube length on pistol uppers
http://phase5tactical.com/products/w...gtail-gas-tube-

I spent a good amount of time browsing phase 5... wanted the pistol sling mount as it is clean and low pro, and also was checking the pigtail tubes. Definitely want to do it right the first time.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:06 AM   #7023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggs View Post
Would appreciate any expertise for a PDW build



I spent a good amount of time browsing phase 5... wanted the pistol sling mount as it is clean and low pro, and also was checking the pigtail tubes. Definitely want to do it right the first time.
If you ask me and many others I know the pig tail is a waste of time and money.

I have several 7-10" and just run a pistol tube and carbine tube on those that I can.
The trick is in the gas port hole and makeing sure that they port is in line with the gas block.
At first years back most people and barrel shops were just cutting down barrels and redrilling a gas port.
Now that people are working up from the start as a pistol barrel looking a 7-10" then they have the trick down.

The only time you will run into a problem now for the most part on a good barrel is some are made to run with a can that adds to the back pressure.
It may not run SubS loads with out a can on it but will in most run SS.

As was stated it all has to do with the distance between the gas port and the end of the barrel to give enough pressure going back in the gast tube long enough to unlock the bolt.
As the barrel/port distance gets shorter then you need to open up the port to get more gas and a faster clip. Then you can add a heavy buffer to counter the speed if that comes a problem.

This is one thing that makes the 300 blackout shine, there are so many loads out there that you can make anything work just from changing the bullet weight or load.
I'm loading 110 grn to 230 grn bullets in them now.
For 8" 10" 16" and I think I have a 18", can't remember if I ever built it up and shot it. Too many to keep up with.
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:18 AM   #7024
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmodel65 View Post
link to his facebook when i search all i get is a bunch of arabic pages under mstn
Wes Grant Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/wes.grant.5?fref=ts

MSTN Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mid-S...ation=timeline

Hope that helps.

- Mark
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:32 AM   #7025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevAdam View Post
Wow, is that really a 12+ year old thread on AR15.com. Regardless of what you may read on a 12+ year old thread on a forum, Wes is one of the most respected AR upper builders in the business. There are not too many custom builders that have custom barrels from Noveske made for their use and / or work with Taran Butler on the design and manufacture of products.

I personally know that Wes builds many uppers for some very interesting people that do very interesting things with their rifles in the real world.

If you want to research Wes and his work - I am sure you can find many an internet thread filled with raving reviews...or you can talk to people who actually use his rifles in the real world...I am sure you can find both.

I have three rifles / uppers from Wes, a MK18, SPR MK12 MOD 1, and my 3-Gun rifle with a 14.5" pinned and welded Surefire and a KAC URX rail. He is currently building me a suppressed 10.5" only upper with a Seekins rail to swallow my TB223A.

They're all sub-MOA guns and they all run like magic.

- Mark
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:30 AM   #7026
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I finally have some of the harder to get parts in. Some LPKs, carriers and put some Geissele triggers, BAD ambi safety's, gunfighter charging handles on sale as well.
IronworksTactical.com.
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:45 AM   #7027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFSMedic View Post
I finally have some of the harder to get parts in. Some LPKs, carriers and put some Geissele triggers, BAD ambi safety's, gunfighter charging handles on sale as well.
IronworksTactical.com.
:Woot:

You see I carry 80% now?!?!
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:35 PM   #7028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fjfar80 View Post
Wow, is that really a 12+ year old thread on AR15.com. Regardless of what you may read on a 12+ year old thread on a forum, Wes is one of the most respected AR upper builders in the business. There are not too many custom builders that have custom barrels from Noveske made for their use and / or work with Taran Butler on the design and manufacture of products.

I personally know that Wes builds many uppers for some very interesting people that do very interesting things with their rifles in the real world.

If you want to research Wes and his work - I am sure you can find many an internet thread filled with raving reviews...or you can talk to people who actually use his rifles in the real world...I am sure you can find both.

I have three rifles / uppers from Wes, a MK18, SPR MK12 MOD 1, and my 3-Gun rifle with a 14.5" pinned and welded Surefire and a KAC URX rail. He is currently building me a suppressed 10.5" only upper with a Seekins rail to swallow my TB223A.

They're all sub-MOA guns and they all run like magic.

- Mark
A) You can call Noveske and they will ship you all the barrels you can afford. I know for a fact though that they will NOT deviate from their design spec. PacNor is most likely where Wes is getting barrels from (That's where Noveske gets their blanks) and is a known GA Precision supplier... When I do a Stainless upper, I use Noveske barrels, but there's nothing really super special about them, I mostly buy them because they include a gas block, and I like talking to Sheri on the phone.

B) There's really no such thing as a custom AR builder. It's more like a lego set than anything. I have over a dozen "custom" ARs, but it's more of picking parts out of a catalog than hand fitting each piece such as a 1911. No one has really changed an important design element on the AR platform since it's inception. The only real recent novelties are ambi lowers, but the only people that have that right is KAC.

C) Sub MOA AR eh? I guess I'll have to take your word for it. A combat AR won't ever be sub MOA (And usually not even 1 or 2 MOA), and these guys shooting service rifle comps, you really don't want to tote one of those around for a long time.

D) You don't see many people shooting 3 gun with a 14.5'r... Also a interesting choice in muzzle brake for a competition rifle. I use SJC comps on my weekend rifles, but it's all personal preference.

E) I'm sure Wes builds some nice stuff, but it is an AR we are talking about here. There are no less than 500 companies all floating their AR wares out there. The only difference between one and the other is who their friends are. That's where the money is. Get Costa or Haley to finger fiddle one of your ARs and you'll be a millionaire too....

F) My point is simple. If someone has had some bad dealings in the past, there are WAY too many other places to get things in the AR world. ARs aren't like 1911s where the market is tight and there's not a lot of whizbang go-fast goodies that market to Joe Airsofter, so there's no reason to deal with anyone difficult, or wait on someone 6 months for anything.

G) I'm really glad you like your ARs. You should consider building your own. There's really nothing magical about assembling one.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:51 PM   #7029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevAdam View Post
A) You can call Noveske and they will ship you all the barrels you can afford. I know for a fact though that they will NOT deviate from their design spec. PacNor is most likely where Wes is getting barrels from (That's where Noveske gets their blanks) and is a known GA Precision supplier... When I do a Stainless upper, I use Noveske barrels, but there's nothing really super special about them, I mostly buy them because they include a gas block, and I like talking to Sheri on the phone.

B) There's really no such thing as a custom AR builder. It's more like a lego set than anything. I have over a dozen "custom" ARs, but it's more of picking parts out of a catalog than hand fitting each piece such as a 1911. No one has really changed an important design element on the AR platform since it's inception. The only real recent novelties are ambi lowers, but the only people that have that right is KAC.

C) Sub MOA AR eh? I guess I'll have to take your word for it. A combat AR won't ever be sub MOA (And usually not even 1 or 2 MOA), and these guys shooting service rifle comps, you really don't want to tote one of those around for a long time.

D) You don't see many people shooting 3 gun with a 14.5'r... Also a interesting choice in muzzle brake for a competition rifle. I use SJC comps on my weekend rifles, but it's all personal preference.

E) I'm sure Wes builds some nice stuff, but it is an AR we are talking about here. There are no less than 500 companies all floating their AR wares out there. The only difference between one and the other is who their friends are. That's where the money is. Get Costa or Haley to finger fiddle one of your ARs and you'll be a millionaire too....

F) My point is simple. If someone has had some bad dealings in the past, there are WAY too many other places to get things in the AR world. ARs aren't like 1911s where the market is tight and there's not a lot of whizbang go-fast goodies that market to Joe Airsofter, so there's no reason to deal with anyone difficult, or wait on someone 6 months for anything.

G) I'm really glad you like your ARs. You should consider building your own. There's really nothing magical about assembling one.
100% correct
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:33 PM   #7030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevAdam View Post

G) I'm really glad you like your ARs. You should consider building your own. There's really nothing magical about assembling one.
This. If you've tackled legos and have $100 sitting around, you can buy all the tools to build an AR and feel like a boss. I've built maybe 10? Lots of folks have built 100.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:36 PM   #7031
but i poop from there!?!?!?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFSMedic View Post
I finally have some of the harder to get parts in. Some LPKs, carriers and put some Geissele triggers, BAD ambi safety's, gunfighter charging handles on sale as well.
IronworksTactical.com.
1. is your inventory real time?
2. eta on firing pins? cam pins?
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:18 PM   #7032
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Any opinions on Adams Arms? It looks like a pretty nice complete upper. The handguard is tidy and reviews I read were positive. There was also a samson handguard that looked nice and like a clean finish.



And the lower I am going to try to get a cerakote finish close to my Tacoma Magnetic Gray. Plenty of tools abounds, just want to have a decent firing PDW out of an 80%. Nice to see LPKs finally in stock many places again. I was thinking JP trigger. Just want a reliable setup, nothing crazy, with phase 5 pistol buffer tube with swivel sling.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:00 PM   #7033
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My 8" SBR runs 100% no need for silly gas tubes
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:49 AM   #7034
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Yep my short barrels run also...
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:31 AM   #7035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RevAdam View Post
A) You can call Noveske and they will ship you all the barrels you can afford. I know for a fact though that they will NOT deviate from their design spec. PacNor is most likely where Wes is getting barrels from (That's where Noveske gets their blanks) and is a known GA Precision supplier... When I do a Stainless upper, I use Noveske barrels, but there's nothing really super special about them, I mostly buy them because they include a gas block, and I like talking to Sheri on the phone.

B) There's really no such thing as a custom AR builder. It's more like a lego set than anything. I have over a dozen "custom" ARs, but it's more of picking parts out of a catalog than hand fitting each piece such as a 1911. No one has really changed an important design element on the AR platform since it's inception. The only real recent novelties are ambi lowers, but the only people that have that right is KAC.

C) Sub MOA AR eh? I guess I'll have to take your word for it. A combat AR won't ever be sub MOA (And usually not even 1 or 2 MOA), and these guys shooting service rifle comps, you really don't want to tote one of those around for a long time.

D) You don't see many people shooting 3 gun with a 14.5'r... Also a interesting choice in muzzle brake for a competition rifle. I use SJC comps on my weekend rifles, but it's all personal preference.

E) I'm sure Wes builds some nice stuff, but it is an AR we are talking about here. There are no less than 500 companies all floating their AR wares out there. The only difference between one and the other is who their friends are. That's where the money is. Get Costa or Haley to finger fiddle one of your ARs and you'll be a millionaire too....

F) My point is simple. If someone has had some bad dealings in the past, there are WAY too many other places to get things in the AR world. ARs aren't like 1911s where the market is tight and there's not a lot of whizbang go-fast goodies that market to Joe Airsofter, so there's no reason to deal with anyone difficult, or wait on someone 6 months for anything.

G) I'm really glad you like your ARs. You should consider building your own. There's really nothing magical about assembling one.
Not to get in an argument with you but, I can assure you some of your "facts" above are incorrect and /or are based on interesting logic.

A) Noveske does in fact turn a special contour for MSTN and they do...if you'd like to argue about that with Wes and Noveske, please feel free to call them. Noveske usually charges Wes an additional $50 for that on top of their normal prices, and Wes gets his barrels directly from Noveske.

B) In regards to custom "AR Builders" there aren't too many builders out there that will got through 50+ bolts to find the best fit...and quite frankly, there aren't too many individuals that can afford to buy that many to just get the right fit.

C) Everyone of my AR's built by Wes is sub-MOA...if you'd like to come shoot one, please sign up for one of our classes and I'll let you run one of my rifles. Wes has a general rule, if it's not sub-MOA it doesn't pass his test. If you don't trust me take Taran Butler's word for it, I believe he has several comments that you can browse on the MSTN Facebook page.

D) 14.5" is actually a great length for 3-gun, it's what I shoot and it works like a champ. Light, fast, and great recoil with a mid-length gas system and the VLTOR A5 buffer system, you should try it. Also, I am short...so, that helps...as you said...to each their own.

E) I fundamentally disagree with you...that's like saying there are a lot of BMW mechanics out there and the only differentiating factor is who their friends are. That's just absolute buffoonery...there are only two BMW mechanics in the United States that I let touch my S38B35 engine in my M5. There are a ton of AR builders out there...true, but not all build top-notch rifles.

F) I am not sure of Wes every being difficult, all the customers of his that I know think he has some of the best customer service period. I've never had an issue with him.

G) I have built many of my own and I am a pretty damn good AR builder...but, again...I don't have the time to test fit 50+ bolts to get the best fit. I don't even have 50+ bolts. I like to let people who are experts at their profession...do their thing and I will gladly pay for that service.

Like I said, I don't want to argue with you...we can agree to disagree on everything above. I respect your opinion and perhaps, that opinion would change if you had a MSTN upper or had the chance to shoot one for an extended period of time.

Good Shooting!

- Mark
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:44 AM   #7036
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Rev -

As a follow-up, please let me know how many "home builders" take a group of 50 bolts, sort them by head-spacing...and then begin fitting those to specific barrels (per the customers order) for the absolute best fit? That may be one reason that MSTN rifles are sub-MOA. Also, how many builders out there that you know have fifty proof round tested, MP-inspected, Ionbond Diamondblack coated bolts for their builds? Details separate those that are good at their profession from those that are great. Like you said, there is no "magic" associated with building an AR but, with everything else in life paying absolute attention to even the smallest details...separates the good from the great. If you're happy with average...more power to you...I am not, I like and am willing to pay for great. Wes even Ionbond Diamonblack coats the pins in his rifles...does it make a difference, yeah it does especially when mated with a Geissele Super Dynamic trigger.

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Old 05-03-2013, 07:49 AM   #7037
All right. I believe ya. But my Tommy Gun don't!
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fjfar80 calm down dude...lol jeez

The difference is you can get to the 90 percentile for X.
To get that last 10% usually costs 3X.
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:55 AM   #7038
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fjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shed
Name: Mark
Joined: Jun 2011, #58767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disc0monkey View Post
fjfar80 calm down dude...lol jeez

The difference is you can get to the 90 percentile for X.
To get that last 10% usually costs 3X.
Don't worry...I am not fired up...internet threads never work me up.

Like you said, 90% may be fine for some folks...but, I like to get to the .10% percentile and yes, it does cost more. I've never had a MSTN upper build come in under $2k but, in my opinion the quality I get is a fair trade-off.

- Mark
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:05 AM   #7039
All right. I believe ya. But my Tommy Gun don't!
disc0monkey is one of the sharper tools in the sheddisc0monkey is one of the sharper tools in the sheddisc0monkey is one of the sharper tools in the sheddisc0monkey is one of the sharper tools in the sheddisc0monkey is one of the sharper tools in the sheddisc0monkey is one of the sharper tools in the sheddisc0monkey is one of the sharper tools in the sheddisc0monkey is one of the sharper tools in the sheddisc0monkey is one of the sharper tools in the sheddisc0monkey is one of the sharper tools in the sheddisc0monkey is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
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absolutely, cars are the same thing. for the LS1 you can get 410rwhp from stock(320rwhp) for $2000 but 450rwhp will cost $5000.
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:14 AM   #7040
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fjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shedfjfar80 is one of the sharper tools in the shed
Name: Mark
Joined: Jun 2011, #58767
Location: Fairfax, Virginia
Gender: Male
Posts: 236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disc0monkey View Post
absolutely, cars are the same thing. for the LS1 you can get 410rwhp from stock(320rwhp) for $2000 but 450rwhp will cost $5000.
Yes sir, I think this forum is a fine example of that...some folks will stick a body lift on or a low budget lift and be happy and say "it's good enough". Others will spend $10k on a custom suspension and say "I've got a great suspension". Then a select few will spend $20k on a custom suspension and they'll know they've got the best suspension available for their intended use. Some will spend $500 on UCA's and some will spend $1k on Icon billet UCA's...and on and on.

The simple fact is that the pursuit of the finest or best for an intended purpose is usually limited or constrained only by the budget your willing to expend.

I just find it interesting when folks try to compare apples to oranges and say they're the same or just as good.

It's simply not true and like a Tacoma suspension, taking out a good rifle and a great rifle to the range, into the field, or into a competition and working it hard will separate the two very quickly.

- Mark
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