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Did Weapons Fail U.S. Troops During Afghanistan Assault?

Discussion in 'Guns & Hunting' started by Packman73, Oct 11, 2009.

Page 3 of 6
  1. Oct 12, 2009 at 2:33 PM
    #41
    Packman73

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    And every time you pull the trigger, superheated dirty nasty gases are sprayed all over the BCG and chamber. Some don't see it as much of a problem but if I were to field a military, I'd want my M4s retrofitted with a piston kit, no question. That being said DI rifles are great for the enthusiast (I have 2 DI ARs).

    Agreed.
     
    Packman73, Oct 12, 2009
    #41
  2. Oct 12, 2009 at 2:38 PM
    #42
    40204ever

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    40204ever Well-Known Member

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    I do not think 100% satisfaction is possible. One guy would bitch about having to clean it or something.
     
    40204ever, Oct 12, 2009
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  3. Oct 12, 2009 at 2:46 PM
    #43
    40204ever

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    40204ever Well-Known Member

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    40204ever, Oct 12, 2009
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  4. Oct 12, 2009 at 2:55 PM
    #44
    testedone

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    testedone Speak English..it's America

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    I really needed to comment on this and flame away who ever wants to..

    I believe the comment above is right on...I am PSYCHOTIC about my weapons maintenance and that of my joes when I was deployed, most of my experience with the young guys was if the NOC's did not keep on them they didn't clean their weapons because xbox was more important, and when some did clean their weapons upon inspection it was just a cursory cleaning...

    Whether it's FN or or an M4 they HAVE to be cleaned, I gave of many hours of rack time to clean my crew served weapons because if my weapons fail then I die or my crew...

    Now, having said that i can't say this was the case in this recent battle (not any of can) but I saw a lack of attention to detail in cleaning while over there, I was National Guard and we even had AD units get in to fights and have their .50 cal fail because they were not maintained...or as one of the Active Duty (Non-Natinal Guard) crew came and asked our armory..."How do you set the head space and timing"? needless to say we were floored..

    Most of the old timers (30+) were relentless about weapons maintenance, not saying all young guys are bad, but the complacency was there in some more then others..
     
    testedone, Oct 12, 2009
    #44
  5. Oct 12, 2009 at 2:58 PM
    #45
    chris4x4

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    chris4x4 With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. Moderator

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    chris4x4, Oct 12, 2009
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  6. Oct 12, 2009 at 3:22 PM
    #46
    40204ever

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    It is. He explains the pros and cons of both systems though. I don't think the guy's opinion would keep anyone from drawing their own conclusion.

    A large part of their business has to do with M1 Garands (Long Stroke gas piston system)
     
    40204ever, Oct 12, 2009
    #46
  7. Oct 12, 2009 at 3:45 PM
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    Packman73

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    I would add to the pro list a couple of things off the top of my head.
    1. Runs cleaner, less heat transfer, and supposedly less recoil.
    2. Better at handling gas pressures from suppressed, SBR'd or full auto fire.
     
    Packman73, Oct 12, 2009
    #47
  8. Oct 12, 2009 at 3:47 PM
    #48
    Packman73

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    On the con list:
    I'm not familiar with other piston systems but this is a red herring argument that really doesn't apply to an LWRC.


    Also a red herring. The difference is a few ounces. Barely noticeable.


    From the pro DI list:
    From the con piston list:
    Quite the opposite.
     
    Packman73, Oct 12, 2009
    #48
  9. Oct 12, 2009 at 3:52 PM
    #49
    Mrgoody86

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    Mrgoody86 Well-Known Member

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    yea i agree me and my dad are fighting this battle with the general of afghanistan mchyrstal. My brother Gunnar Zwilling died in that battle in Wanat. they had little no no supplies and not enough intelligence to make the decision to go into that fob. not only that it happens one year later in the same situation. This person made a horrible mistake to put those boys in battle like that and we are trying to see to it that there are repremands for decisions like that.// Off the soap box now sorrry
     
    Mrgoody86, Oct 12, 2009
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  10. Oct 12, 2009 at 3:56 PM
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    testedone

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    Sorry for your loss brother..
     
    testedone, Oct 12, 2009
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  11. Oct 12, 2009 at 3:57 PM
    #51
    Packman73

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    X10. :(
     
    Packman73, Oct 12, 2009
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  12. Oct 12, 2009 at 4:24 PM
    #52
    Mrgoody86

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    thanks guys
     
    Mrgoody86, Oct 12, 2009
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  13. Oct 12, 2009 at 4:31 PM
    #53
    40204ever

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    Maybe the LWRC system is the answer. Time will tell I supose. I don't know how old the article on Fulton Armory's site is.

    I don't think piston v DI will get solved here.

    I would like to know what the background on this story is. Is it enemy propaganda, or just some typical yellow journalism trying to sensationalize a non issue or a real story with a real issue that has for some reason been ignored since the begining of the war? Why is this just now coming out?

    This type of issue would make any reporter's career. The news media would run an issue like this 24/7 and tell us how Bush was to blame for Stoner inventing the rifle when Bush was in the National Guard or that Dick Cheney liked DI because he likes hot gas.

    The story doesn't pass the smell test to me.
     
    40204ever, Oct 12, 2009
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  14. Oct 12, 2009 at 4:37 PM
    #54
    40204ever

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    I hate to hear that. I am sorry for your loss.
     
    40204ever, Oct 12, 2009
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  15. Oct 12, 2009 at 4:41 PM
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    Mrgoody86

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    Thank you 40204ever
     
    Mrgoody86, Oct 12, 2009
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  16. Oct 12, 2009 at 4:53 PM
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    Packman73

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    I'll +1 that. The M16/M4 (pros, cons or whatever) has had an amazingly long service life for a reason.
     
    Packman73, Oct 12, 2009
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  17. Oct 12, 2009 at 5:42 PM
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    AVTOMAT

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    Wow.Ak not hitting paper at 200 yds......My targets are pretty big like 2.5' x 2' , won't hit that? What is a good shot group for an Ak? How about an M4?
     
    AVTOMAT, Oct 12, 2009
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  18. Oct 12, 2009 at 5:57 PM
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    Caduceus

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    Not to start a battle of wits online, but if this is true, then the NCO's and officers are partly to blame too. The younger guys only know what they're taught, so either the older folks aren't teaching, or they're just as complacent and the younger are imitating.

    OK, back on topic... is anyone else reminded of all the problems the M16 had back when it was first introduced in Vietnam?

    Can someone explain why, 40 years later, we're still using the same firearm??? This is an actual question, not sarcastic. Look from Civil war til now, there were big design changes fairly quickly, but change has kind of stagnated at the military level now for quite some time.
     
    Caduceus, Oct 12, 2009
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  19. Oct 12, 2009 at 6:00 PM
    #59
    Packman73

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    Packman73 [OP] ^^^^ 3%er ^^^^

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    An AK getting less than 3" groups at 100 yards would be a rare thing. A carbine lenght AR-15 can get 1" groups or less. Aks just arn't that accurate out to 200yds or more. They aren't sniper rifles. They are awesome for what they are meant for; close combat.
     
    Packman73, Oct 12, 2009
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  20. Oct 12, 2009 at 6:02 PM
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    testedone

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    Not attacking you...

    They (all Army personnel) are taught proper weapons maintenance and it is all of our jobs, yes I 100%. And we (NCO's) do police the ranks to make sure all is taken care of, I am just stating that it doesn't happen all the time by all the NCO's... It should but it's the sad state of affairs we are in today...

    Never had a SAW fail on me or my M4, 50, or 240B when proper maintenance is done :)
     
    testedone, Oct 12, 2009
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