Did Weapons Fail U.S. Troops During Afghanistan Assault?

raskal311 · 10-12-2009, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris4x4

Personally, a 90% satisfaction rating is unacceptable. The troops need a weapon they are 100% comfortable with. This is their weapon to protect/defend lives for Christs sake!

Who wants to bet that 90% of those 90% never used their M4 in battle :S I have a buddy that spend a few years in total over there and said he didn't fire his M4in battle until his very last month; I think I did 3 may 4 tours.

PackerfanXD · 10-12-2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40204ever

DI is self cleaning. Everytime you pull the trigger the old layer of GSR is replaced with a new, warmer layer of GSR.

And every time you pull the trigger, superheated dirty nasty gases are sprayed all over the BCG and chamber. Some don't see it as much of a problem but if I were to field a military, I'd want my M4s retrofitted with a piston kit, no question. That being said DI rifles are great for the enthusiast (I have 2 DI ARs).

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40204ever

The M4 is a pig but it works.

Agreed.

40204ever · 10-12-2009, 02:38 PM

I do not think 100% satisfaction is possible. One guy would bitch about having to clean it or something.

40204ever · 10-12-2009, 02:46 PM

Gas piston vs DI FYI

http://www.fulton-armory.com/WhyNotaGasPistonAR.htm

This site has some good information for a wide range of first world battle rifles.

testedone · 10-12-2009, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnecon2001

I have no idea the conditions and free time and maintenance training available over there.. but there is a lot to be said for cleaning and maintaining your weapon. Part of me thinks it may not just be a poor design, but also a lack of proper care.
Again, not to shift blame off the weapon, but the article does mention needing a lot of maintenance (dirty?), a lot of that could be fixed by breaking the weapon down and cleaning it.

I really needed to comment on this and flame away who ever wants to..

I believe the comment above is right on...I am PSYCHOTIC about my weapons maintenance and that of my joes when I was deployed, most of my experience with the young guys was if the NOC's did not keep on them they didn't clean their weapons because xbox was more important, and when some did clean their weapons upon inspection it was just a cursory cleaning...

Whether it's FN or or an M4 they HAVE to be cleaned, I gave of many hours of rack time to clean my crew served weapons because if my weapons fail then I die or my crew...

Now, having said that i can't say this was the case in this recent battle (not any of can) but I saw a lack of attention to detail in cleaning while over there, I was National Guard and we even had AD units get in to fights and have their .50 cal fail because they were not maintained...or as one of the Active Duty (Non-Natinal Guard) crew came and asked our armory..."How do you set the head space and timing"? needless to say we were floored..

Most of the old timers (30+) were relentless about weapons maintenance, not saying all young guys are bad, but the complacency was there in some more then others..

chris4x4 · 10-12-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40204ever

Gas piston vs DI FYI

http://www.fulton-armory.com/WhyNotaGasPistonAR.htm

This site has some good information for a wide range of first world battle rifles.

This seems to be just one persons opinion?

40204ever · 10-12-2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris4x4

This seems to be just one persons opinion?

It is. He explains the pros and cons of both systems though. I don't think the guy's opinion would keep anyone from drawing their own conclusion.

A large part of their business has to do with M1 Garands (Long Stroke gas piston system)

PackerfanXD · 10-12-2009, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40204ever

Gas piston vs DI FYI

http://www.fulton-armory.com/WhyNotaGasPistonAR.htm

This site has some good information for a wide range of first world battle rifles.

I would add to the pro list a couple of things off the top of my head.
1. Runs cleaner, less heat transfer, and supposedly less recoil.
2. Better at handling gas pressures from suppressed, SBR'd or full auto fire.

PackerfanXD · 10-12-2009, 03:47 PM

On the con list:

Quote:

More complex, more components to foul, corrode or go bad.

I'm not familiar with other piston systems but this is a red herring argument that really doesn't apply to an LWRC.

Quote:

Heavier.

Also a red herring. The difference is a few ounces. Barely noticeable.

From the pro DI list:

Quote:

Simple construction, inexpensive, nothing to wear, foul or corrode.

From the con piston list:

Quote:

More complex, more components to foul, corrode or go bad.

Quite the opposite.

Mrgoody86 · 10-12-2009, 03:52 PM

yea i agree me and my dad are fighting this battle with the general of afghanistan mchyrstal. My brother Gunnar Zwilling died in that battle in Wanat. they had little no no supplies and not enough intelligence to make the decision to go into that fob. not only that it happens one year later in the same situation. This person made a horrible mistake to put those boys in battle like that and we are trying to see to it that there are repremands for decisions like that.// Off the soap box now sorrry

testedone · 10-12-2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrgoody86

yea i agree me and my dad are fighting this battle with the general of afghanistan mchyrstal. My brother Gunnar Zwilling died in that battle in Wanat. they had little no no supplies and not enough intelligence to make the decision to go into that fob. not only that it happens one year later in the same situation. This person made a horrible mistake to put those boys in battle like that and we are trying to see to it that there are repremands for decisions like that.// Off the soap box now sorrry

Sorry for your loss brother..

PackerfanXD · 10-12-2009, 03:57 PM

X10.

Mrgoody86 · 10-12-2009, 04:24 PM

thanks guys

40204ever · 10-12-2009, 04:31 PM

Maybe the LWRC system is the answer. Time will tell I supose. I don't know how old the article on Fulton Armory's site is.

I don't think piston v DI will get solved here.

I would like to know what the background on this story is. Is it enemy propaganda, or just some typical yellow journalism trying to sensationalize a non issue or a real story with a real issue that has for some reason been ignored since the begining of the war? Why is this just now coming out?

This type of issue would make any reporter's career. The news media would run an issue like this 24/7 and tell us how Bush was to blame for Stoner inventing the rifle when Bush was in the National Guard or that Dick Cheney liked DI because he likes hot gas.

The story doesn't pass the smell test to me.

40204ever · 10-12-2009, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mrgoody86

yea i agree me and my dad are fighting this battle with the general of afghanistan mchyrstal. My brother Gunnar Zwilling died in that battle in Wanat. they had little no no supplies and not enough intelligence to make the decision to go into that fob. not only that it happens one year later in the same situation. This person made a horrible mistake to put those boys in battle like that and we are trying to see to it that there are repremands for decisions like that.// Off the soap box now sorrry

I hate to hear that. I am sorry for your loss.

Mrgoody86 · 10-12-2009, 04:41 PM

Thank you 40204ever

PackerfanXD · 10-12-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40204ever

The story doesn't pass the smell test to me.

I'll +1 that. The M16/M4 (pros, cons or whatever) has had an amazingly long service life for a reason.

AVTOMAT · 10-12-2009, 05:42 PM

Wow.Ak not hitting paper at 200 yds......My targets are pretty big like 2.5' x 2' , won't hit that? What is a good shot group for an Ak? How about an M4?

Caduceus · 10-12-2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by testedone

Most of the old timers (30+) were relentless about weapons maintenance, not saying all young guys are bad, but the complacency was there in some more then others..

Not to start a battle of wits online, but if this is true, then the NCO's and officers are partly to blame too. The younger guys only know what they're taught, so either the older folks aren't teaching, or they're just as complacent and the younger are imitating.

OK, back on topic... is anyone else reminded of all the problems the M16 had back when it was first introduced in Vietnam?

Can someone explain why, 40 years later, we're still using the same firearm??? This is an actual question, not sarcastic. Look from Civil war til now, there were big design changes fairly quickly, but change has kind of stagnated at the military level now for quite some time.

PackerfanXD · 10-12-2009, 06:00 PM

An AK getting less than 3" groups at 100 yards would be a rare thing. A carbine lenght AR-15 can get 1" groups or less. Aks just arn't that accurate out to 200yds or more. They aren't sniper rifles. They are awesome for what they are meant for; close combat.

10-12-2009, 03:57 PM	#52
PackerfanXD Just waiting for the Apocalypse Name: Mr. Mom Joined: Aug 2008, #8741 Location: Armed In A GUN-FREE Zone Age: 36 Gender: Male Posts: 3,678 Killer Blue Taco 2007 Double Cab Automatic 4.0 V6 Bilstein 5100's, OME 885's, Total Chaos UCAs, Rear Leaf Spring TSB, Toytec AALs, Moto Metal 950 16" Wheels, BFG 285/75R 16 AT Tires, TRD Exhaust, Viper Alarm, Fog Light Mod, De-badged, Blue LED Dome Light, EZ Clamped Tailgate, Wet Okoles, Satoshi Grill, 5% Tint, Engine Tick Fix, Black Bumper, Black Center Valence, Thanks for all the help chris4x4!	X10. __________________ Μολὼν λάβε!!! *"From my cold, dead hands!"* I was Anti-Obama when Anti-Obama wasn't cool. (<I also had this in my sig before it was cool)

10-12-2009, 06:00 PM	#60
PackerfanXD Just waiting for the Apocalypse Name: Mr. Mom Joined: Aug 2008, #8741 Location: Armed In A GUN-FREE Zone Age: 36 Gender: Male Posts: 3,678 Killer Blue Taco 2007 Double Cab Automatic 4.0 V6 Bilstein 5100's, OME 885's, Total Chaos UCAs, Rear Leaf Spring TSB, Toytec AALs, Moto Metal 950 16" Wheels, BFG 285/75R 16 AT Tires, TRD Exhaust, Viper Alarm, Fog Light Mod, De-badged, Blue LED Dome Light, EZ Clamped Tailgate, Wet Okoles, Satoshi Grill, 5% Tint, Engine Tick Fix, Black Bumper, Black Center Valence, Thanks for all the help chris4x4!	An AK getting less than 3" groups at 100 yards would be a rare thing. A carbine lenght AR-15 can get 1" groups or less. Aks just arn't that accurate out to 200yds or more. They aren't sniper rifles. They are awesome for what they are meant for; close combat. __________________ Μολὼν λάβε!!! *"From my cold, dead hands!"* I was Anti-Obama when Anti-Obama wasn't cool. (<I also had this in my sig before it was cool)

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10-12-2009, 02:38 PM	#43
40204ever Senior Member Joined: Nov 2008, #10853 Location: Caldwell, TX Gender: Male Posts: 385 4x4 taco racing development 2009 Double Cab Manual v6	I do not think 100% satisfaction is possible. One guy would bitch about having to clean it or something.

10-12-2009, 02:46 PM	#44
40204ever Senior Member Joined: Nov 2008, #10853 Location: Caldwell, TX Gender: Male Posts: 385 4x4 taco racing development 2009 Double Cab Manual v6	Gas piston vs DI FYI http://www.fulton-armory.com/WhyNotaGasPistonAR.htm This site has some good information for a wide range of first world battle rifles.

10-12-2009, 03:52 PM	#50
Mrgoody86 Member Name: Alex Joined: Dec 2008, #11342 Location: Lincoln, CA Age: 23 Gender: Male Posts: 91 2009 Tacoma 4x4, DBL Cab, Sport Edition 2009 Double Cab Automatic 4 Liter, V6 K&N CAI, Custom duel exhaust with jones muffler, Viper Alarm w/ remote start, Cobra radar detector hard wired and mounted above rear view mirror. Leather Arm rest mod, LED cabin light, Redline elite hood struts. Bilstien 5100's all around, front coilover set at 2.5", Toytec aal, and Total Chaos UCA's, Scangauge II, Front Diff Drop kit, Yellow Lamin-X fog light covers, 6K HID conversion Kit for Headlights	yea i agree me and my dad are fighting this battle with the general of afghanistan mchyrstal. My brother Gunnar Zwilling died in that battle in Wanat. they had little no no supplies and not enough intelligence to make the decision to go into that fob. not only that it happens one year later in the same situation. This person made a horrible mistake to put those boys in battle like that and we are trying to see to it that there are repremands for decisions like that.// Off the soap box now sorrry

10-12-2009, 04:24 PM	#53
Mrgoody86 Member Name: Alex Joined: Dec 2008, #11342 Location: Lincoln, CA Age: 23 Gender: Male Posts: 91 2009 Tacoma 4x4, DBL Cab, Sport Edition 2009 Double Cab Automatic 4 Liter, V6 K&N CAI, Custom duel exhaust with jones muffler, Viper Alarm w/ remote start, Cobra radar detector hard wired and mounted above rear view mirror. Leather Arm rest mod, LED cabin light, Redline elite hood struts. Bilstien 5100's all around, front coilover set at 2.5", Toytec aal, and Total Chaos UCA's, Scangauge II, Front Diff Drop kit, Yellow Lamin-X fog light covers, 6K HID conversion Kit for Headlights	thanks guys

10-12-2009, 04:31 PM	#54
40204ever Senior Member Joined: Nov 2008, #10853 Location: Caldwell, TX Gender: Male Posts: 385 4x4 taco racing development 2009 Double Cab Manual v6	Maybe the LWRC system is the answer. Time will tell I supose. I don't know how old the article on Fulton Armory's site is. I don't think piston v DI will get solved here. I would like to know what the background on this story is. Is it enemy propaganda, or just some typical yellow journalism trying to sensationalize a non issue or a real story with a real issue that has for some reason been ignored since the begining of the war? Why is this just now coming out? This type of issue would make any reporter's career. The news media would run an issue like this 24/7 and tell us how Bush was to blame for Stoner inventing the rifle when Bush was in the National Guard or that Dick Cheney liked DI because he likes hot gas. The story doesn't pass the smell test to me.

10-12-2009, 04:41 PM	#56
Mrgoody86 Member Name: Alex Joined: Dec 2008, #11342 Location: Lincoln, CA Age: 23 Gender: Male Posts: 91 2009 Tacoma 4x4, DBL Cab, Sport Edition 2009 Double Cab Automatic 4 Liter, V6 K&N CAI, Custom duel exhaust with jones muffler, Viper Alarm w/ remote start, Cobra radar detector hard wired and mounted above rear view mirror. Leather Arm rest mod, LED cabin light, Redline elite hood struts. Bilstien 5100's all around, front coilover set at 2.5", Toytec aal, and Total Chaos UCA's, Scangauge II, Front Diff Drop kit, Yellow Lamin-X fog light covers, 6K HID conversion Kit for Headlights	Thank you 40204ever

10-12-2009, 05:42 PM	#58
AVTOMAT Senior Member Joined: Aug 2009, #21161 Location: Behind you Gender: Male Posts: 131 09 TRD Sport DBL Cab Super White 2009 Double Cab Automatic 4.0 V6 De-badge.Pro Comp 7089.White front emblem.AFE pro dry air filter.Full Wet Okole covers.The rest in progress pending research	Wow.Ak not hitting paper at 200 yds......My targets are pretty big like 2.5' x 2' , won't hit that? What is a good shot group for an Ak? How about an M4?