Did Weapons Fail U.S. Troops During Afghanistan Assault?

[PackerfanXD]

Sounds like our troops need some LWRCs.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,563883,00.html

WASHINGTON — In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.
When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.
Which raises the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?
Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.
A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.


Army Col. Wayne Shanks, a military spokesman in Afghanistan, said a review of the battle at Kamdesh is under way. "It is too early to make any assumptions regarding what did or didn't work correctly," he said.
Complaints about the weapons the troops carry, especially the M4, aren't new. Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.
The M4 is a shorter, lighter version of the M16, which made its debut during the Vietnam war. Roughly 500,000 M4s are in service, making it the rifle troops on the front lines trust with their lives.
Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., a leading critic of the M4, said Thursday the Army needs to move quickly to acquire a combat rifle suited for the extreme conditions U.S. troops are fighting in.
U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.
"The M4 has served us well but it's not as good as it needs to be," Coburn said.
Battlefield surveys show that nearly 90 percent of soldiers are satisfied with their M4s, according to Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, head of the Army office that buys soldier gear. Still, the rifle is continually being improved to make it even more reliable and lethal.
Fuller said he's received no official reports of flawed weapons performance at Wanat. "Until it showed up in the news, I was surprised to hear about all this," he said.
The study by Douglas Cubbison of the Army Combat Studies Institute at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., hasn't been publicly released. Copies of the study have been leaked to news organizations and are circulating on the Internet.
Cubbison's study is based on an earlier Army investigation and interviews with soldiers who survived the attack at Wanat. He describes a well-coordinated attack by a highly skilled enemy that unleashed a withering barrage with AK-47 automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades.
The soldiers said their weapons were meticulously cared for and routinely inspected by commanders. But still the weapons had breakdowns, especially when the rifles were on full automatic, which allows hundreds of bullets to be fired a minute.
The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot. The high rate of fire appears to have put a number of weapons out of commission, even though the guns are tested and built to operate in extreme conditions.
Cpl. Jonathan Ayers and Spc. Chris McKaig were firing their M4s from a position the soldiers called the "Crow's Nest." The pair would pop up together from cover, fire half a dozen rounds and then drop back down.
On one of these trips up, Ayers was killed instantly by an enemy round. McKaig soon had problems with his M4, which carries a 30-round magazine.
"My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."
The soldiers also had trouble with their M249 machine guns, a larger weapon than the M4 that can shoot up to 750 rounds per minute.
Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon.
Bogar was killed during the firefight, but no one saw how he died, according to the report.

[neontrail]

LWRCs ?

[PackerfanXD]

Originally Posted by neontrail

LWRCs ?

Piston operated M4s.

Like this one on the bottom;


The bolts don't get hot/dirty and jam.

[jnolan88]

this is what the special forces are using.

The command selected FN Herstal to develop SCAR in 2004 after holding a competition to find a reliable, modular weapon system for its elite forces.
The SCAR has a short-stroke, gas-piston operating system. The upper receiver is aluminum and houses a free-floating barrel for improved accuracy. The lower receiver is polymer to help reduce weight. Both versions can be equipped with different barrel lengths to suit missions ranging from close-quarter fights to long-range shooting.
Operators can chose a 10-inch, 14-inch or 18-inch barrel for the MK16 and a 13-inch, 16-inch or 20-inch barrel for the heavier MK17. Each of these can be changed out by the shooter in minutes, FN officials say. The MK16 uses a 30-round magazine; the MK17 uses a 20-rounder. Eighty percent of the parts are common to both the light and heavy versions to reduce long-term maintenance costs, FN officials say.
The SCAR also includes the MK13 40mm grenade launcher, designed to fit on both the MK16 and MK17 or fire in the stand-alone mode.
Like the M4A1, both versions of the SCAR can fire on full automatic. The conventional Army’s M4 carbine uses a three-round burst instead of full auto.

[chris4x4]

Personally, a 90% satisfaction rating is unacceptable. The troops need a weapon they are 100% comfortable with. This is their weapon to protect/defend lives for Christs sake!

[oakleyTRD]

LWRC was doing free demos yesterday at SGC, they had some pretty sweet configurations on display out there

[ImpulseRed008]

Originally Posted by chris4x4

Personally, a 90% satisfaction rating is unacceptable. The troops need a weapon they are 100% comfortable with. This is their weapon to protect/defend lives for Christs sake!

X999999999999999999

They need to be able to depend on their weapon since their lives (as well as others') depends on it working.

[ashjwilliams]

Hey Packerfan, aren't you over at XD forum's as well?

I just joined here at TacomaWorld. Just purchased a 2010 Black Sand Pearl Toyota Tacoma, short bed, double cab, 4x4, 4.0 liter V6, 5 speed auto, TRD Sports Extra Value Package. I had an 09 Subaru WRX but it was a POS.

[PackerfanXD]

Originally Posted by jnolan88

this is what the special forces are using.

The command selected FN Herstal to develop SCAR in 2004 after holding a competition to find a reliable, modular weapon system for its elite forces.
The SCAR has a short-stroke, gas-piston operating system. The upper receiver is aluminum and houses a free-floating barrel for improved accuracy. The lower receiver is polymer to help reduce weight. Both versions can be equipped with different barrel lengths to suit missions ranging from close-quarter fights to long-range shooting.
Operators can chose a 10-inch, 14-inch or 18-inch barrel for the MK16 and a 13-inch, 16-inch or 20-inch barrel for the heavier MK17. Each of these can be changed out by the shooter in minutes, FN officials say. The MK16 uses a 30-round magazine; the MK17 uses a 20-rounder. Eighty percent of the parts are common to both the light and heavy versions to reduce long-term maintenance costs, FN officials say.
The SCAR also includes the MK13 40mm grenade launcher, designed to fit on both the MK16 and MK17 or fire in the stand-alone mode.
Like the M4A1, both versions of the SCAR can fire on full automatic. The conventional Army’s M4 carbine uses a three-round burst instead of full auto.

I hear those are sweet but the LWRC is American made and has 80% commonality with the existing M4.

[PackerfanXD]

Originally Posted by ashjwilliams

Hey Packerfan, aren't you over at XD forum's as well?

I just joined here at TacomaWorld. Just purchased a 2010 Black Sand Pearl Toyota Tacoma, short bed, double cab, 4x4, 4.0 liter V6, 5 speed auto, TRD Sports Extra Value Package. I had an 09 Subaru WRX but it was a POS.

I sure am. Welcome to TW.

[chris4x4]

Fn makes some quality firearms...I would like to see those with our troops.

[PackerfanXD]

Originally Posted by PackerfanXD

I hear those are sweet but the LWRC is American made and has 80% commonality with the existing M4.

[chris4x4]

Originally Posted by PackerfanXD

Yes...But I havent heard of the LWRC being 100% either.....sorry.

[jnolan88]

i do not get to carry a gun in my job (medic) but if i did i would want the scar. just cause it looks bad ass. i qualify on an m16 every 2 years and have to say it's pretty bad ass as well. i have gotten marksmen 3 out of 4 times with it.

[PackerfanXD]

Originally Posted by chris4x4

Yes...But I havent heard of the LWRC being 100% either.....sorry.

I have a hard time believing that with 70,000 rounds through test rifles with zero malfunctions.

[Colton]

Originally Posted by chris4x4

Personally, a 90% satisfaction rating is unacceptable. The troops need a weapon they are 100% comfortable with. This is their weapon to protect/defend lives for Christs sake!

X10000! Completely agree!

[fghtngsquirrel]

That SCAR is a badass weapon. Danger Room reported that this would eventually replace the M4, but it comes down to $$... BS.

[johnecon2001]

I have no idea the conditions and free time and maintenance training available over there.. but there is a lot to be said for cleaning and maintaining your weapon. Part of me thinks it may not just be a poor design, but also a lack of proper care.
Again, not to shift blame off the weapon, but the article does mention needing a lot of maintenance (dirty?), a lot of that could be fixed by breaking the weapon down and cleaning it.

[mxboy57]

Originally Posted by chris4x4

Fn makes some quality firearms...I would like to see those with our troops.

My issue weapon is a FN made M16 and I have never had any problems with it. zero malfunctions.

[ImpulseRed008]

Originally Posted by johnecon2001

I have no idea the conditions and free time and maintenance training available over there.. but there is a lot to be said for cleaning and maintaining your weapon. Part of me thinks it may not just be a poor design, but also a lack of proper care.
Again, not to shift blame off the weapon, but the article does mention needing a lot of maintenance (dirty?), a lot of that could be fixed by breaking the weapon down and cleaning it.

I can see the need for cleaning, but when you are living in a dust bowl, with lots of blowing sand, keeping anything clean would be next to impossible.