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would you give up your guns?

View Poll Results: what would you do if the government came to take your guns
hand them over without a fight 74 6.72%
over my dead body! im going down firing! 1,028 93.28%
Voters: 1102. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-01-2011, 09:29 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Hulley View Post
Amen Brother........................Too bad most sheeple dont understand this, I guess they are too busy watching American Idol.
Some people don't seem to understand that when you give up your ability to defend yourself, you are actually giving up your ability to secure your own freedom. Last time I checked, our Revolutionary War was not won by simply talking about it.

The first thing that tyrannical governments do is outlaw the ability of its' citizenry to defend itself. And for those who don't believe it couldn't happen here, wake up. The more people that become lazy and ignorant of history, the more likely it is to repeat itself. Some things are WORTH FIGHTING FOR. And our freedom and liberty are chief among them. Our Bill of Rights is unique to our nation. No other has these rights codified in a Constitution written by and for the people... that's what makes us a beacon of freedom to the world. When people around the globe think of freedom, they think of the United States of America. This is not by accident. By the millions each year, oppressed people come here legally and illegally. Whatever it takes to be free.

So for those of you who believe you are preserving our nation and our collective liberties by turning over your guns because you are "told" it's in the nation's best interest, you need to ask yourself a simple question:

What makes up a free nation? Its government, or is it the people?

We are a free nation because our Constitution and Bill of Rights guarantees the PEOPLE the right to change it. What other nation offers such a right? I'll tell you: None.

I'll keep my guns, thank you. And a government that chooses to go down the path of stealing from me my ability to defend my liberties, is a nation I will no longer hold allegiance. I may be an American, but what is America if it is no longer free? Bottom line: The forfeiture of guns would only be the first of many steps toward enslavement. And I will die fighting before that happens.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 09:49 AM   #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redes View Post
The question seems to ask: "is confiscation of guns adequate justification for rebellion?" I would have to assume such a step by the government would not occur in isolation, however without a lot of speculation about what other steps might be involved, I must answer that I would hand 'em over. I am a law abiding citizen of this country and arm myself, in part, to support her. For me confiscation of firearms alone is not justification for rebellion.

Just my $.02
I respect your opinion, but what, in your mind, would justify a rebellion if gun confiscation would not trigger it? And, having already given up your guns, how would you organize and equip a rebellion to be successful?

Again, I respect your opinion. I was just wondering how effective an unarmed rebellion would be against a heavily armed tyrannical enemy. In my estimation, it would be a losing battle from the outset. At least if armed, your rebellion would have a fighting chance of success.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 12:35 PM   #423
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I respect your views and only forward mine with great consideration. While I concede that observing this conterfactual law is replete with moral, legal, and practical quandaries, I am trying to answer honestly and thoughtfully. In doing so I would appreciate it if some people might refrain from platitudes about how my conclusions are the product of a weak mind, political bias, or a poor understanding of history.

I believe in the 2nd amendment and the constitution but in this counterfactual one of two things must have occurred. First, the 2nd amendment is no longer in effect (for whatever reason). Second, the constitution is intact and the law is awaiting adjudication by existing political institutions. In the first case, the constitution would have been changed or terminated and the government would have to be judged on its own merits (likely, it would be unjust). Second, the political institutions are intact and must be allowed to work according to their constitutional obligations. Based only on the proposition that law enforcement is asking for my guns...I am not prepared to mount an insurrection.

There is no doubt in my mind that narratives where violence is justified are myriad, I am not going to presuppose those here. In any case, I do not believe that such a law could pass, much less be enforced.

Again I answer for myself. The polling numbers suggest that I am in an extreme minority here. I would only ask that you state your opinion and allow me to state mine.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 01:01 PM   #424
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Fairly moot point the Gov. can't keep track of money some thing they dearly love much less 600 million unregistered weapons.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 01:17 PM   #425
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over my dead body

this (actually read the article, pretty good)

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/wood115.html




i would have one for each of my guns lol

and a story about how i sold them in the paper and dont have the paperwork anymore, i was replacing the ink in my printer and it blew open since i dropped it, coated a lot fo papers, so they were thrown away
 
Old 09-01-2011, 01:37 PM   #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redes View Post
I respect your views and only forward mine with great consideration. While I concede that observing this conterfactual law is replete with moral, legal, and practical quandaries, I am trying to answer honestly and thoughtfully. In doing so I would appreciate it if some people might refrain from platitudes about how my conclusions are the product of a weak mind, political bias, or a poor understanding of history.

I believe in the 2nd amendment and the constitution but in this counterfactual one of two things must have occurred. First, the 2nd amendment is no longer in effect (for whatever reason). Second, the constitution is intact and the law is awaiting adjudication by existing political institutions. In the first case, the constitution would have been changed or terminated and the government would have to be judged on its own merits (likely, it would be unjust). Second, the political institutions are intact and must be allowed to work according to their constitutional obligations. Based only on the proposition that law enforcement is asking for my guns...I am not prepared to mount an insurrection.

There is no doubt in my mind that narratives where violence is justified are myriad, I am not going to presuppose those here. In any case, I do not believe that such a law could pass, much less be enforced.

Again I answer for myself. The polling numbers suggest that I am in an extreme minority here. I would only ask that you state your opinion and allow me to state mine.
I respect your views but I must say that if our Government enacted a law that confiscated arms of its citizens something is wrong and I would rather see to my personal safety and my loved ones. I look to Katrina as an example and how that was handled. Weapons were confiscated, not tagged and people were not given receipts, then held by the government in barrels. During which time the barrels flooded with water ruining many peoples personal property which included many priceless firearms and peoples livelihoods.
I would rather our government trust its people to do the right thing than the government always think that the first ones to commit crimes are those who have followed every law. I would rather die in a country I love than live in a country I hate.
That being said if any law was passed to consficate arms I would be the first to move to Texas and secede with it from the Union to enjoy the freedoms our families have been fighting for for generations.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 01:45 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by LStotler View Post
First off police wouldnt be taking them from you the gov't would be and no we dont work for them. And seconds police would put up more of a fight for their guns.
i could very easily see the police putting up a fight for their guns in my area
 
Old 09-01-2011, 01:49 PM   #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulley View Post
So I guess you would do whatever is asked of you by the Government? Thats like saying you personally dont stand for anything and look to the Government for direction.
I understand your point. If someone is prepared to yield on one issue, where do they stop. But this line of thinking reminds me of the Aaron Tippin song "you've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything", and it recently occurred to me that the line is not too much different if you invert it. How do you know that you are so afraid to fall for something that you are standing for anything? Semantics aside, I think that we all have an obligation to inform ourselves so that we are equipped to make that judgement if ever the need arrives. I assure you however, I don't do anything simply because it is asked of me....ask my wife.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 01:58 PM   #430
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I sold all of my guns, and no i didn't get any info on who I sold them to. All I know about them is they spoke Spanish and said something about how these would work great in Mexico.
This is my plan....
 
Old 09-01-2011, 02:01 PM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StZu View Post
I sold all of my guns, and no i didn't get any info on who I sold them to. All I know about them is they spoke Spanish and said something about how these would work great in Mexico.
This is my plan....
this.......is an idea i could work with
 
Old 09-01-2011, 02:04 PM   #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rleeharris View Post
I respect your opinion, but what, in your mind, would justify a rebellion if gun confiscation would not trigger it? And, having already given up your guns, how would you organize and equip a rebellion to be successful?

Again, I respect your opinion. I was just wondering how effective an unarmed rebellion would be against a heavily armed tyrannical enemy. In my estimation, it would be a losing battle from the outset. At least if armed, your rebellion would have a fighting chance of success.

Truth is I have trouble imagining what would entice me to revolt. It is not that I would never do so, its because I have considerable faith in the institutions in place. It is not that I cannot conceive of egregious transgressions against the people by the government. Rather, my faith in the system is rooted in the fragmentation of power within the government. As several people have already chimed in on the subject, who here can imagine a law that would actually be enforced on a widespread basis. Many LEOs are strong supporters of the 2nd amendment. The military can only be used in domestic law enforcement roles in extraordinary circumstances. Many state governments would likely ignore such a law. Never mind the infighting that would ensue among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches.

It is that fragmentation that I believe answers the second part of your question as well. Revolutions are rarely a subset of the people vs the collective might of their government. While an armed citizenry clearly is a more potent citizenry, it is the ideas of a revolution and their power to bifurcate the military, law enforcement, and civilian political institutions that give a revolution a legitimate opportunity to win. Look at Egypt, Libya, the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the fall of the Soviet Union etc, etc...in each case defections from the government/military gave the revolutions access to domestic and international legitimacy, military assets and know how, and governing experience.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 02:05 PM   #433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maineah View Post
Fairly moot point the Gov. can't keep track of money some thing they dearly love much less 600 million unregistered weapons.
I agree 10000%
 
Old 09-01-2011, 02:27 PM   #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redes View Post
I respect your views and only forward mine with great consideration. While I concede that observing this conterfactual law is replete with moral, legal, and practical quandaries, I am trying to answer honestly and thoughtfully. In doing so I would appreciate it if some people might refrain from platitudes about how my conclusions are the product of a weak mind, political bias, or a poor understanding of history.

I believe in the 2nd amendment and the constitution but in this counterfactual one of two things must have occurred. First, the 2nd amendment is no longer in effect (for whatever reason). Second, the constitution is intact and the law is awaiting adjudication by existing political institutions. In the first case, the constitution would have been changed or terminated and the government would have to be judged on its own merits (likely, it would be unjust). Second, the political institutions are intact and must be allowed to work according to their constitutional obligations. Based only on the proposition that law enforcement is asking for my guns...I am not prepared to mount an insurrection.

There is no doubt in my mind that narratives where violence is justified are myriad, I am not going to presuppose those here. In any case, I do not believe that such a law could pass, much less be enforced.

Again I answer for myself. The polling numbers suggest that I am in an extreme minority here. I would only ask that you state your opinion and allow me to state mine.
Wherein did I prohibit you from stating your opinion? You, in fact, stated it quite clearly--as I have stated mine. I made it clear from the outset that I do respect your viewpoint. I, however, disagree vehemently with your unwillingness to question the legal authority of the state, if and when such a law abridging our 2nd Amendment rights were enacted. In my own remarks, I stated that some things are worth fighting for, and of those, freedom and liberty are primary examples.

Adding to my previous comments, I think the difference between the majority in this poll and the minority is the latter may be exhibiting some naive blind devotion to the perceived beneficence of our own government. Sorry, maybe its because I have served now 20 years in government service, and I, unfortunately, know much better--not all of what the masses are told is true. I, therefore, believe it is our duty as citizens to question our government and stand up to those in power when it is clear the rights of the people are being infringed. So, regarding any future government order to confiscate personally-owned weapons, I will remain openly defiant.

I believe this scenario is not only possible, I believe it is likely. How far must you look to see that our individual liberties are being slowly eroded for the security of the whole? The Patriot Act, newly adopted TSA screening procedures, and the mandatory requirement to purchase healthcare coverage to name but only a recent few. Benjamin Franklin is attributed for writing, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." I think that dead horny-ass bastard was right on the money.

It is my opinion, that when a people no longer have the ability to defend themselves against the repressive and increasingly over-reaching powers of their own government, then all is most certainly lost. Again, I had no intention of barring you from your opinion and I believe you did an excellent job of making it clear to all of us. I respect your disagreement with my position.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 02:33 PM   #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StZu View Post
I sold all of my guns, and no i didn't get any info on who I sold them to. All I know about them is they spoke Spanish and said something about how these would work great in Mexico.
This is my plan....
Exactly my thought and have said as much in discussions around the "Water Cooler"
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Old 09-01-2011, 03:12 PM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redes View Post
Truth is I have trouble imagining what would entice me to revolt. It is not that I would never do so, its because I have considerable faith in the institutions in place. It is not that I cannot conceive of egregious transgressions against the people by the government. Rather, my faith in the system is rooted in the fragmentation of power within the government. As several people have already chimed in on the subject, who here can imagine a law that would actually be enforced on a widespread basis. Many LEOs are strong supporters of the 2nd amendment. The military can only be used in domestic law enforcement roles in extraordinary circumstances. Many state governments would likely ignore such a law. Never mind the infighting that would ensue among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches.

It is that fragmentation that I believe answers the second part of your question as well. Revolutions are rarely a subset of the people vs the collective might of their government. While an armed citizenry clearly is a more potent citizenry, it is the ideas of a revolution and their power to bifurcate the military, law enforcement, and civilian political institutions that give a revolution a legitimate opportunity to win. Look at Egypt, Libya, the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the fall of the Soviet Union etc, etc...in each case defections from the government/military gave the revolutions access to domestic and international legitimacy, military assets and know how, and governing experience.
Well, I certainly applaud your faith... I have very little nowadays. I used to trust my government implicitly. However, knowing what I know and seeing what I have seen first hand has me a bit suspicious not only of our government, but of our elected leaders.

To your point regarding the bifurcation of our government, military, law enforcement agencies and even civilian institutions in the event of a revolution, I believe you are right. Also, I agree that the fragmentation of our branches of government would likely occur. Some will go along willingly, others will not. This is not unlike our own first American Revolution, as you stated. This nation would truly be divided and revolution or civil war would surely follow.

To the original question in this thread, I would not give up my own guns under any circumstance because I can perceive no possible reason for their forfeiture. Do I think the government's wholesale confiscation of weapons would be successful? Not in a million years. To maineah's comment, the government hasn't got a clue where all the guns are. The government would literally have to send tens of thousands of troops door-to-door and conduct such timely searches that it would be a near impossible task.

However, as seen in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, small-scale confiscation has been successful. In my opinion, this was a clear violation of the 2nd Amendment rights of those citizens. It is as clear a violation as the events of Ruby Ridge and Waco, where our government murdered its' own citizens. Most citizens have little understanding of what actually occurred and bought the government propaganda, delivered in cooperation by the mass media.

Again, I'm impressed with your trustworthiness in our government. As for me, I'll remain suspicious and question our elected leaders and agencies where and when I feel appropriate.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 04:30 PM   #437
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re: rleeharris

I won't quote from your posts only because I am looking a two of them and figure it will just fill the page. The one time stamped 3:27 and the one stamped 4:12.


I was not trying to imply that you intended to stifle my opinion. But I don't care for it when statements are made such as:

"Too bad most sheeple dont understand this, I guess they are too busy watching American Idol."
(I thought I saw one questioning my knowledge of history but I cannot find it)

My opinion is not above reproach, but I am no sheep. I am happy to share and discuss my views, even their weaknesses, but I don't care for any line of thinking to be undermined by demeaning the writer. My statement about being free to state opinions may have been poorly worded. What I was trying to suggest, was that if someone disagreed with me, state their opinion or refute my case, but don't question my thoughtfulness. I assure you whatever guilty pleasures I may indulge in, American Idol will never be one!


As to you statement about my optimism...I don't know that I am optimistic and I definitely do not see the government's conduct as ever beneficent. I just know that our history is replete with examples of abhorrent behavior by our government, and while these errors are costly and embarrassing the system itself is extremely resilient. The French state is in it's fifth permutation of a republican form of government, since the founding of the United States. Germany as we know it today, depending on how you count the years is half as old as the United States. Britain's democracy was a work in progress when we left it's sovereignty, in fact being a work in progress was a big part of why. We are among the longest continuously functioning states in the world, much less democracies. Our system (the constitution) has weathered existential crises since the moment the founding fathers put pen to paper. In each case the system was stretched and deformed but over time there are corrective trends that seem to play out. The Civil War could be described as over when the Civil Rights Act of 1965 and Voting Rights Act of 1965 were passed. If such a case can be made, then the corrective action of history took a century to play out, but the outcome was very much in line with the language of the Reconstruction Amendments in the constitution.

I suppose my point is: I do not have an exceptional amount of faith in the government; I do, however, believe in the vision of the constitution and that while errors may be made today, the clairvoyance of the founding document exert a corrective force in the course of history....

...perhaps I am fairly optimistic after all
 
Old 09-01-2011, 04:32 PM   #438
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Wink

What guns?.............

All my guns were in a boat that sunk 10 miles north of San Juan a few yrs back!!!
 
Old 09-01-2011, 05:18 PM   #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redes View Post
re: rleeharris

I won't quote from your posts only because I am looking a two of them and figure it will just fill the page. The one time stamped 3:27 and the one stamped 4:12.


I was not trying to imply that you intended to stifle my opinion. But I don't care for it when statements are made such as:

"Too bad most sheeple dont understand this, I guess they are too busy watching American Idol."
(I thought I saw one questioning my knowledge of history but I cannot find it)

My opinion is not above reproach, but I am no sheep. I am happy to share and discuss my views, even their weaknesses, but I don't care for any line of thinking to be undermined by demeaning the writer. My statement about being free to state opinions may have been poorly worded. What I was trying to suggest, was that if someone disagreed with me, state their opinion or refute my case, but don't question my thoughtfulness. I assure you whatever guilty pleasures I may indulge in, American Idol will never be one!


As to you statement about my optimism...I don't know that I am optimistic and I definitely do not see the government's conduct as ever beneficent. I just know that our history is replete with examples of abhorrent behavior by our government, and while these errors are costly and embarrassing the system itself is extremely resilient. The French state is in it's fifth permutation of a republican form of government, since the founding of the United States. Germany as we know it today, depending on how you count the years is half as old as the United States. Britain's democracy was a work in progress when we left it's sovereignty, in fact being a work in progress was a big part of why. We are among the longest continuously functioning states in the world, much less democracies. Our system (the constitution) has weathered existential crises since the moment the founding fathers put pen to paper. In each case the system was stretched and deformed but over time there are corrective trends that seem to play out. The Civil War could be described as over when the Civil Rights Act of 1965 and Voting Rights Act of 1965 were passed. If such a case can be made, then the corrective action of history took a century to play out, but the outcome was very much in line with the language of the Reconstruction Amendments in the constitution.

I suppose my point is: I do not have an exceptional amount of faith in the government; I do, however, believe in the vision of the constitution and that while errors may be made today, the clairvoyance of the founding document exert a corrective force in the course of history....

...perhaps I am fairly optimistic after all
Thanks for the reply and I believe I see your point. Your opinion is as valuable as mine and your thoughts are very well worded. I don't believe you are naive, but many people are. As for the quote about sheeple and watching American Idol, that was not mine. I respect your opinion very much and if any way you found my comments insulting, that was not my intent. This debate can be emotional at times and I may get carried away in the moment--I can admit that. I also wanted to mention that we are not far apart on our feelings; just may have a different way of interpreting a particular set of circumstances. I agree wholeheartedly with your final point.
 
Old 09-01-2011, 05:41 PM   #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redes View Post
The question seems to ask: "is confiscation of guns adequate justification for rebellion?" I would have to assume such a step by the government would not occur in isolation, however without a lot of speculation about what other steps might be involved, I must answer that I would hand 'em over. I am a law abiding citizen of this country and arm myself, in part, to support her. For me confiscation of firearms alone is not justification for rebellion.

Just my $.02
First thing to go will be semi auto rifles, then it will be mag fed pistols, then it will be anything with fast reload capabilities, then it will be all firearms, then its usually dangerous literature, then it is this ethnic group, then its this other ethnic group, then it is you. The right to bear arms is the second amendment for a reason. The only thing more important than the second amendment is the first amendment which promises certain freedoms, the second amendment gives us a means to protect those freedoms promised in the first amendment. I will not only say confiscation of guns is just reason for rebellion, but will add further that the loss of any of our promised freedoms is just cause.

This is not directed at anyone in particular because I respect everyone's opinion but here we go;

I am not a redneck, in fact I am a college educated African American from Massachusetts. Gun control was used to keep the slaves slaves and newly freed blacks from becoming 'dangerous'. So forgive me when I do not want to give up my freedoms that have been afforded to me through the sacrifices of my forefathers, both black and white, and through due diligence to not become a stereo type and give my freedom to bear arms away in the name of street cred. I love my country enough to put my life on the line for her. If you do not respect my freedoms, that is your choice, just remember that the choice to feel that way and be able to voice it was paid for by the blood of men who were armed.
 
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