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Old 09-06-2009, 04:04 PM   #1
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Government Health care????

Ok, don't want to start a thread debating thing... But, just want some clarification on what exactly is trying to be done here. With some many ads from both sides of the line, it's hard to sort out the truth here....
 
Old 09-06-2009, 05:17 PM   #2
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You'd be better off doing some googling and reading up on it yourself than asking here.

FWIW, I work in health care and can only see a government option helping.

Most of the negative spin I've seen is just scare tactics and FUD being thrown out there by the health insurance industry and the people the health insurance industry gives money to (which includes politicians on both sides of the aisle). They want to protect their big fat profits. A lot of the stuff you hear hysterics about is crap...be skeptical, but keep an open mind is my advice.
 
Old 09-06-2009, 05:31 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel View Post
IMO... The public option will put people out of work.
I don't see how. If anything, it would create more cushy government jobs. The private sector health carriers would have to cut profits to compete on a cost basis, or justify their higher prices and profits with better customer satisfaction (which equates to quality care). Either way, the patient is who wins, and that's what matters.

Option is the point. If private health insurance really is so much better (as many detractors of a public option claim), then why are they so hesitant for something to compete against it? Shouldn't it crush all comers?


Quote:
If they want to 'fix' health care, then they need tort reform & allow added competition via interstate policy sales.
These would both help, but the root of the problem is that health insurance companies make more money the less care they provide their customers. Their incentive is to not pay for care. What it should be is to return the person to health effectively. But there's no money in that for them.


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Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel View Post
Most of the negative spin is justified because the assclowns in DC don't even understand what they want.
Sort of. You're correct, politicians are having a hard time pretending there are two sides to this fight since the medical lobby gives VAST amounts of money to both parties. But the vitriol should be directed at politicians of both parties, not claiming a public option for insurance is a horrible idea.
 
Old 09-06-2009, 05:44 PM   #4
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I spent a week one summer doing a mission project in Canada. I worked on a family's house. It was a single mother with a adolescent son and daughter. The daughter had a health condition which put tremendous stress on the family. She was extremely intelligent. I grew incredibly close to the family and kept contact ever til now. I got emails about a month after i left about how she went to a regional science competition and won first place. A few months after I had worked with them the daughter had a stroke. She got wait-listed for surgery and ended up passing away due to it.

That is why I hate government health care. You talk about customer satisfaction and quality, when healthcare begins to rival the efficiency of the DMV, who wins?
 
Old 09-06-2009, 05:45 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel View Post
I think you're naive if you think the government can do anything better than the private sector.
The postal service, fire depts, police depts, state universities, public libraries, the army, the navy, the air force, Depts of Transportation, TSA, OSHA, and others are common examples of publicly administered industries that out-competed the private sector attempts to move into their service areas. Maybe not TSA and OSHA, but then if the private sector does everything better, why were watchdog agencies created in the first place? Supposedly these private entities would be better at policing their own safety...unless they make a better margin to do without.

The myth that the government does everything worse than the private sector is one that's gone on for far too long. I can send a package USPS ground for a couple dollars that will arrive in the same amount of time as if shipped UPS Ground at 3 or 4 times the cost. And the Postal Service delivers to a far larger area than Fedex and UPS.

No, the government doesn MANY things better than the private sector, specifically because it is, allegedly, a non-profit entity (big-money kickbacks to congressional pawns from enormous corporations not withstanding).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgerm View Post
That is why I hate government health care. You talk about customer satisfaction and quality, when healthcare begins to rival the efficiency of the DMV, who wins?
There are plenty of examples of the same kind of story you just mentioned here in the US. The difference is that the government doesn't make money off of watilisting someone for surgery, whereas Kaiser, Humana, and Aetna do if they "rescind" (read: take away coverage after the fact) someone's coverage because they're becoming too expensive.

The difference between your story in Canada and your story in the US is that in the US, the young lady never would've even been wait-listed for surgery. She likely wouldn't have had coverage, or care, at all.


Wake up people - private health insurers in the US already do everything the talking heads on Fox News are screaming about. Death Panels DO exist, but they have nothing to do with Obama. They're called the board of directors at BCBS.

In my time in my career, I've seen countless patients with justified need denied reimbursement or coverage for needed care for no reason. Everyone knew the real reason - the insurance company is hoping to complicate the situation enough that it becomes more costly for the patient to fight for what they've paid for already than to just pay it out of pocket...if they can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel View Post
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are shining examples of the government doing a great job...
You do realize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac weren't government owned until late last year? Their only government involvement up until that point was a mutated form of subsidy.
 
Old 09-06-2009, 05:50 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jandrews View Post
The postal service, fire depts, police depts, state universities, public libraries, the army, the navy, the air force, Depts of Transportation, TSA, OSHA, and others are common examples of publicly administered industries that out-competed the private sector attempts to move into their service areas. Maybe not TSA and OSHA, but then if the private sector does everything better, why were watchdog agencies created in the first place? Supposedly these private entities would be better at policing their own safety...unless they make a better margin to do without.

The myth that the government does everything worse than the private sector is one that's gone on for far too long. I can send a package USPS ground for a couple dollars that will arrive in the same amount of time as if shipped UPS Ground at 3 or 4 times the cost. And the Postal Service delivers to a far larger area than Fedex and UPS.

No, the government doesn MANY things better than the private sector, specifically because it is, allegedly, a non-profit entity (big-money kickbacks to congressional pawns from enormous corporations not withstanding).

lol....You put the US postal service on that list, ooohhh yeah they are doing real good nowadays.
You wanna know sometimes why they arrive at the same time as UPS or FedEx, because the US postal service uses FedEx and UPS to help them ship their own packages.
 
Old 09-06-2009, 05:52 PM   #7
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lol....I fell this thread is going to get real soon.
 
Old 09-06-2009, 05:55 PM   #8
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There are plenty of examples of the same kind of story you just mentioned here in the US. The difference is that the government doesn't make money off of watilisting someone for surgery, whereas Kaiser, Humana, and Aetna do if they "rescind" (read: take away coverage after the fact) someone's coverage because they're becoming too expensive.

The difference between your story in Canada and your story in the US is that in the US, the young lady never would've even been wait-listed for surgery. She likely wouldn't have had coverage, or care, at all.

True, but her mom also worked a full time jobs with the schools and a part time job in a toll both (or something with the ferry to detroit, I can't remember entirely). In the US she would have had the benefits that private healthcare would offer.

It is obvious that private healthcare in the US is not perfect, but is socialized healthcare any better? People like my dad are the ones working to try and make it better so my views are biased.
 
Old 09-06-2009, 05:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel View Post
Wow... you name those entities as examples of the government doing right?
You're not even worth my time responding. I'll be nice for the forum's sake and just end my participation of this discussion rather than telling you what I think of your brain capacity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BakoTruck View Post
lol....You put the US postal service on that list, ooohhh yeah they are doing real good nowadays.
You wanna know sometimes why they arrive at the same time as UPS or FedEx, because the US postal service uses FedEx and UPS to help them ship their own packages.


So....you guys have no good points to make so you're just going to give up?

Listen, I'm way open of mind and willing to have a civil discussion on the topic. I'm not insulting either of you, and I don't think less of either of you for disagreeing with me.

BUT, if you DO disagree with me, then give me a rationale. Tell me the reasons why you think I'm wrong. I'll be happy to listen and, if I feel like it, rebut.

By the way, one thing I do wonder, since you fellas hate the postal service so much....do you send all your letters and packages FedEx/UPS/Similar, or do you get mail on a daily basis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgerm View Post
True, but her mom also worked a full time jobs with the schools and a part time job in a toll both (or something with the ferry to detroit, I can't remember entirely). In the US she would have had the benefits that private healthcare would offer.
What benefits? Again, this is problem - and I spend 8 hours a day in the industry, so I would know - having private insurance in the US does not mean you will receive care. This is a huge misconception.

But you're right, they would have had a carrier. However, can you guarantee that the outcome would have been better? Can you guarantee their private health carrier wouldn't have denied payment for her needed surgery based on "lack of need" or "lack of evidence" for the treatment? I see both happen daily.

Quote:
It is obvious that private healthcare in the US is not perfect, but is socialized healthcare any better? People like my dad are the ones working to try and make it better so my views are biased.
And this is the issue - socialized healthcare may *not* be better than private - but is it better than NONE?

This is the confusion I keep seeing injected into the signal. I'm not in favor of socialized medicine and never have been. I am in favor of a public OPTION for insurance. Health care practice (i.e. practitioners) should remain private sector, and the option for private sector insurance should definitely still exist.

I want someone to show me compelling evidence of harm for giving people the option to choose?
 
Old 09-06-2009, 05:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel View Post
Most of the negative spin is justified because the assclowns in DC don't even understand what they want.

IMO... The public option will put people out of work. If they want to 'fix' health care, then they need tort reform & allow added competition via interstate policy sales.

Lawyers and politicians will destroy this country from the inside out.
X2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel View Post
I think you're naive if you think the government can do anything better than the private sector.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are shining examples of the government doing a great job...
Umm.....X2!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel View Post
Wow... you name those entities as examples of the government doing right?
You're not even worth my time responding. I'll be nice for the forum's sake and just end my participation of this discussion rather than telling you what I think of your brain capacity.
Oh yes...X2 AGAIN.
 
Old 09-06-2009, 05:59 PM   #11
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Personally, the LAST thing this country needs is MORE government run programs. The BEST thing for this country right now is to start eliminating government run BS things.
 
Old 09-06-2009, 06:01 PM   #12
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The government can't even run the government right, so what makes them think they can run health care?
Would you let your barber work on your truck? Hell NO! Then why would you let politicians (mostly lawyers) run health care?
 
Old 09-06-2009, 06:01 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 283 View Post
The government can't even run the government right, so what makes them think they can run health care?
Would you let your barber work on your truck? Hell NO! Then why would you let politicians (mostly lawyers) run health care?
Im gonna throw a "X2" here also.
 
Old 09-06-2009, 06:04 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by BakoTruck View Post
lol....You put the US postal service on that list, ooohhh yeah they are doing real good nowadays.
You wanna know sometimes why they arrive at the same time as UPS or FedEx, because the US postal service uses FedEx and UPS to help them ship their own packages.
Ok, then take the postal service off the list if you don't like them. What say you about the others? I want a point by point analysis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretSquirrel View Post
Wow... you name those entities as examples of the government doing right?
You're not even worth my time responding. I'll be nice for the forum's sake and just end my participation of this discussion rather than telling you what I think of your brain capacity.
I'm sure the multitude of firemen, police officers, and servicemen are so proud of your disrespect for their sacrifice and service.

You do realize that as a member of the armed forces all your VA benefits and healthcare will be government administered? Are you going to refuse it because it is against your principles? I would like an answer.
 
Old 09-06-2009, 06:05 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by chris4x4 View Post
Personally, the LAST thing this country needs is MORE government run programs. The BEST thing for this country right now is to start eliminating government run BS things.
X2

Congress needs to SLOW down and THINK about what the health care system NEEDS and then propose that. Instead they are just trying to get anything passed so we can say we have untied health care (or whatever they are going to call it). Quit fighting because it isn't along the party line. They should be trying to join forces to get a good plan going.
 
Old 09-06-2009, 06:06 PM   #16
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The way I look at it is either its the government running their programs under the banner of "Helping citizens" while hopelessly losing money, or its the private section getting their balls busted for "not caring about the average joe" by trying to run programs that don't lose money.
 
Old 09-06-2009, 06:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris4x4 View Post
Personally, the LAST thing this country needs is MORE government run programs. The BEST thing for this country right now is to start eliminating government run BS things.
I wholeheartedly agree Chris, but I'm going to put the same challenge to you that I put to the others:

Provide points, evidence, examples, topics of discussion. Back your position. I respect you (and have learned quite a bit from you on this board) and would be interested in your input.

Why, when it comes to this topic, is everyone more intent on throwing insults than discussing, rationally, the positions and issues? This name-calling-first method is what has Washington screwed up in the first place.
 
Old 09-06-2009, 06:07 PM   #18
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I don't believe the current administration was anticipating such a resistance to the health care bill(s) they have tried to pass. It would help if they would all read the damn things for starters...isn't that their job? The national government was meant to keep the individual states in balance, not try to provide something for the whole country. If health care was a "right", then why haven't Americans had it from the start?
 
Old 09-06-2009, 06:08 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by dgerm View Post
The way I look at it is either its the government running their programs under the banner of "Helping citizens" while hopelessly losing money, or its the private section getting their balls busted for "not caring about the average joe" by trying to run programs that don't lose money.
Let me make my own analogy - who would you trust more with your life savings - someone who had nothing to gain by stealing it, or someone who stood to gain it all by stealing it?
 
Old 09-06-2009, 06:08 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by jandrews View Post



What benefits? Again, this is problem - and I spend 8 hours a day in the industry, so I would know - having private insurance in the US does not mean you will receive care. This is a huge misconception.

But you're right, they would have had a carrier. However, can you guarantee that the outcome would have been better? Can you guarantee their private health carrier wouldn't have denied payment for her needed surgery based on "lack of need" or "lack of evidence" for the treatment? I see both happen daily.


Your point is extremely valid. Who knows if private insurance would have helped their situation? All I know is that government insurance DID NOT HELP and a talented young girl is dead because of it.
 
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