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Old 02-26-2014, 01:31 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by badphish14 View Post
I'm curious if the officer identified himself as a cop? I'm not saying that the firefighter was right but if he thinks he's just fighting off a hotel security guard instead of an off duty officer it's a different outcome I bet. Like mipawlus said, we've all gotten out of hand but once the police were involved, you smarten up and behave a little better.
true story! i once broke an off duty cop's arm (same night i got put in the drunk tank) who grabbed me without identifying himself. upon snappage, he identified himself and i complied (i also apologized, but i don't know if he accepted), was escorted out of the concert, and chauffeured to the local jail. i was a licensed security guard in san diego and people took us as seriously as they took speed limit signs or warnings about smoking pot and it's effect on your health.

its amazing how quickly the charges escalate after they say "i'm officer ____________ with __________ sheriff/police dept."
 
Old 02-26-2014, 01:35 AM   #22
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He's working security for the hotel. I highly doubt he's wearing his police uniform at the hotel. I'm not disagreeing or agreeing, wasn't there. Terrible for both.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 01:39 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Jareds Toyota View Post
I want some LEOs to chime in right about now. Sounds like you guys are forming opinions when you have most likely never been in a situation like that.
i'm speaking as a combat vet. i've been shot at in 4 countries (including the US) and drawn my pistol twice in the states, once as recently as 2 nights ago, but learning the difference between "shit this really hurts" and "i am in legitimate fear for my life" are two different things. those memories turn into ghosts and ghosts haunt you for a lifetime.

i'm also not saying i stand by what the cop did, nor am i siding with the ff. no one here was in the position to make the call they were, but from what we CAN see (not based on what a nurse - far from a life taker - says), chances are, the cop skipped a few steps. pain compliance doesn't work? try mace/pepper spray. as drunk as i've been, pepper spray WORKS. fucker's still coming like a bat out of hell? (keeping in mind the edited video) try presenting a firearm first. the business end of a pistol speak volumes. dumbass charges you when you have a drawn pistol. by all means. you raised, he called.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 01:50 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mipawlus View Post
i'm speaking as a combat vet. i've been shot at in 4 countries (including the US) and drawn my pistol twice in the states, once as recently as 2 nights ago, but learning the difference between "shit this really hurts" and "i am in legitimate fear for my life" are two different things. those memories turn into ghosts and ghosts haunt you for a lifetime.

i'm also not saying i stand by what the cop did, nor am i siding with the ff. no one here was in the position to make the call they were, but from what we CAN see (not based on what a nurse - far from a life taker - says), chances are, the cop skipped a few steps. pain compliance doesn't work? try mace/pepper spray. as drunk as i've been, pepper spray WORKS. fucker's still coming like a bat out of hell? (keeping in mind the edited video) try presenting a firearm first. the business end of a pistol speak volumes. dumbass charges you when you have a drawn pistol. by all means. you raised, he called.
I think he was a little close for pepper spray, and would risk spraying himself? At first the ff looks as if he isn't resisting arrest, so there wouldn't be a point to the officer drawing his pistol. And the officer did need facial reconstruction, I'm sure those punches caused more damage than you'd think. Definitely not a good outcome for both sides, but I don't think the officer was in the wrong.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 02:06 AM   #25
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the joys of opinions and being an objective third party.

honestly, if some random dude was whooping my non-LEO ass outside of a bar and i KNEW there was no way out (and if i had my chl/ccw), by all means, i would follow the steps i talked about earlier (escalation of force is kinda engraved in most marines head). since i'm not and the state of texas says carrying wile intoxicated is a felony, i'd probably get my ass whooped. but i'm also tired of seeing death (particularly american/american and all because one was drunk).

cops, at least in texas, have to get certified to carry pepper spray - part of that.... getting pepper sprayed to know how to react to it. my dumbass volunteered to try it when my brother (LEO) was getting his cert. my dumbass has volunteered (in a round about way) to do it when drunk. it works, and it hurts, and it SUCKS, but god damn if you don't stop fighting and everyone in a giant radius become reverts to insta-bitch mode (minus those on the more hardcore drugs).

and yes, when you hold someone's head down and waylay them (ground and pound), it causes a shitload of damage, particularly to the ocular bones and nose. anyone that follows MMA/UFC will attest to that.

the only person who can really truly judge the officer is his own self. sure, he will be judged before the court and a judge and jury will find him guilty or not. he will be judged by every person who watches that video. the only other person who knew what was going on in that is now relegated to the past tense.

as my pops says, hindsight is always 20/20. we can just hope that this is all brought to an as-peaceful-as-possible ending as quickly as possible. the departed deserves his due respect and the leo deserves his.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 02:07 AM   #26
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Old 02-26-2014, 02:09 AM   #27
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Watch the second video. The nurse heard in the background testified to the effect he had no other choice. To the guy that said take a beating and then put out an apb... Are you kidding me? Leo's don't can not take losses or even draws. Let's say he took that beating, the guy took his gun and brained him. The statistics show, if the bad guy gets your gun, you have a 10 percent chance of living. When your daily dress for 25 years includes bullet resistant armor, then you arm chair quarterback. If you were that cab driver getting your ass kicked prior, I am sure you would want someone to step in, most departments require an action be taken. Watch the other video with the newscaster, then come back. If you are still hating , it's cause you are a cop hater, and no debate will change your mind.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 02:10 AM   #28
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PS he was cleared at Grand jury
 
Old 02-26-2014, 02:17 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLynch View Post
Watch the second video. The nurse heard in the background testified to the effect he had no other choice. To the guy that said take a beating and then put out an apb... Are you kidding me? Leo's don't can not take losses or even draws. Let's say he took that beating, the guy took his gun and brained him. The statistics show, if the bad guy gets your gun, you have a 10 percent chance of living. When your daily dress for 25 years includes bullet resistant armor, then you arm chair quarterback. If you were that cab driver getting your ass kicked prior, I am sure you would want someone to step in, most departments require an action be taken. Watch the other video with the newscaster, then come back. If you are still hating , it's cause you are a cop hater, and no debate will change your mind.
dog, it's called a holster hood. only the wearer can open it. therefore, ONLY THE WEARER can decide the outcome.. where are these statistics? who reported that? FOX news? stfu. have you been in a life or death situation that you survived miraculously? have you been in either of those people's shoes? have you been in a situation where you spent time on end in 60lbs of combat gear regardless of what youre doing - eating, sleeping, taking a shit? i have. i've had bullets zing past me and shrapnel hit me. i've watch armored truck fly 15 feet in the air in front of my truck because of a double stacked IED. my brother, step brother, and sister in law, along with a larger number of my friends are LEO. i'm aiming to go into the fire academy here in spring, which i chose over the police academy. i challenge you to call me a cop hater.

and since when is a nurse considered an expert in ground fighting?
 
Old 02-26-2014, 02:18 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLynch View Post
PS he was cleared at Grand jury
then more power to him, i'm just trying to say that we weren't there and from MY KNOWLEDGE of leo sop, deadly force is not the first option.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 02:29 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Domc20 View Post
So if he would have knocked the officer out and took his weapon then what?
if ifs and buts were candy and nuts... did he? no. that's adding extrapolating circumstances. i'm basing my thoughts and comments on THIS (probably edited) video. if you present facts and a logical statement, then we can talk logically, vice the "you've never worn body armor, you cop hater" statements.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 02:36 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLynch View Post
Watch the second video. The nurse heard in the background testified to the effect he had no other choice. To the guy that said take a beating and then put out an apb... Are you kidding me? Leo's don't can not take losses or even draws. Let's say he took that beating, the guy took his gun and brained him. The statistics show, if the bad guy gets your gun, you have a 10 percent chance of living. When your daily dress for 25 years includes bullet resistant armor, then you arm chair quarterback. If you were that cab driver getting your ass kicked prior, I am sure you would want someone to step in, most departments require an action be taken. Watch the other video with the newscaster, then come back. If you are still hating , it's cause you are a cop hater, and no debate will change your mind.
Its very unfortunate that this happened but I agree if he would have knocked him out then took his gun and killed him, everyone would be saying why didn't the officer shoot him.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 02:39 AM   #33
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Common in Cali. All bad

Resisting and swinging on a cop you'll probably get hit with his strongest weapon.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 02:43 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THExBUSxDRIVER View Post
Why isn't the cop at least half physically fit or knowledgeable in ground fighting to where he could have easily turned the tables and sub'd him?
A common mistake is that cops have extensive training in hand-to-hand fighting techniques. The truth is that they receive a very minimum level of defensive tactics training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jareds Toyota View Post
I think he was a little close for pepper spray, and would risk spraying himself?
Most departments policy is that pepper spray cannot be used within five feet of a subject due to the risk of the hydraulic needle effect. The pressure of the spray can actually puncture the eye ball and cause serious injury, which is the equivalent of deadly force.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mipawlus View Post
dog, it's called a holster hood. only the wearer can open it. therefore, ONLY THE WEARER can decide the outcome..
As someone that has trained ground tactics while armed; I assure you it is fairly easy to remove a gun from a retention holster with a thumb break.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mipawlus View Post
then more power to him, i'm just trying to say that we weren't there and from MY KNOWLEDGE of leo sop, deadly force is not the first option.
There is not, nor has there ever been, a requirement to go through the "levels" of force before one can get to deadly force. If there is a threat of death or serious injury, deadly force can be used.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 02:47 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brown View Post
As someone that has trained ground tactics while armed; I assure you it is fairly easy to remove a gun from a retention holster with a thumb break.

average civilian though? let alone a CLEARLY drunk individual.... youtube is a wonderful source of information, but it's not going to provide the techniques or finesse.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 02:51 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brown View Post
As someone that has trained ground tactics while armed; I assure you it is fairly easy to remove a gun from a retention holster with a thumb break.



There is not, nor has there ever been, a requirement to go through the "levels" of force before one can get to deadly force. If there is a threat of death or serious injury, deadly force can be used.
depending on your situation. in my experience in combat, yes. once the serious threat comes about, yes. getting your ass whooped on a city sidewalk IN MY OPINION... hardly grounds. but that's just me.

what is his precinct/district/office/bureau's policy on intervening in a crime while off duty? once again, in texas, most - if not all - leo agencies TO MY KNOWLEDGE require them to step in. in the videos provided, did he let it be known that he's a cop? i didn't hear it.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 02:52 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brown View Post
Anyone with basic holster knowledge could figure it out.
you give the average drunk civilian a lot of credit.
 
Old 02-26-2014, 02:53 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mipawlus View Post
average civilian though? let alone a CLEARLY drunk individual.... youtube is a wonderful source of information, but it's not going to provide the techniques or finesse.
LEOs are killed often in gun grab incidents.. Don't think its about technique or finesse. I can't tell if you are playing devils advocate or if you actually believe what you are saying
 
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