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Old 02-19-2014, 08:21 PM   #261
"Pick up some speed.. You'll make it."
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I don't stand by the mindless abuse that happens to boots in the infantry. It is ridiculous and should be put to an end. I also don't stand by the change that is taking place. If I can no longer discipline my Marine to the points that I feel he will trust and obey me in combat, as well as be pushed hard enough to be dependable in combat, then I don't want to go to combat with him.

I hate to segregate, as I have no problem with any other branch of service or MOS, but things have to work a certain way in the infantry. My life is in the hands of these kids I was training and I wasn't allowed to train them. I appreciate and respect the service of you gentlemen who have gone in WAY before me. You did more with less and I respect you in a way I don't even have for my fellow generation of Marines. Yet if you were in back in the 80s, which I have no idea what it was like aside from stories, then I must ask how you know what it is like now. I had fellow Marines go to the brig for making a kid do pushup and his mother literally called the CO of the entire Battalion. Pushups, people. In the Marine Corps haha

Vietnam and the World Wars were beasts that I could never even begin to fathom and I don't pretend to. Those Marines were a different breed than us Iraq and Afghanistan vets, tougher and did more with less, by far. Yet that doesn't mean I didn't need to train my boots for Afghan. We lost a lot of guys and limbs as a whole over there and I have to say if regular discipline and training would have been implemented we would have been better off. Crap still happens. It's war. But I guarantee you the Marines we left in charge when I got out were not able to train their new Marines to an acceptable standard.

I don't care if you say the change doesn't matter or not. If you're not in in the past 5-10 years then how do you know? And if you're not a combat vet or infantryman than I'm sorry but while I still respect you how can you talk on something that isn't your job? Please hear that I don't hate on other MOS Marines, but the Infantry is different. It's life or death and training is important. The change does suck and Marines are ill prepared because of it. No one who has been in the Marine Corps Infantry recently and deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan that I personally know of will say otherwise. Some will, but I haven't met them personally. Everyone I've talked to says the same thing.
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:40 PM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaToy1997 View Post
Fair enough, even though I may disagree with some things. I think that in order to build a Marine, it takes determination and toughness. I grew up "Spare the rod, spoil the child" and still believe in it. It is not FEAR that I see instilled, as much as getting your attention. Tell a child a dozen times to not do something, and see if they listen. But bust their butt when they disobey, and that will be a very good motivating reminder about listening. Again, I do see your point behind your opinion, and I won't get into a discussion over Ribbon Creek, but I just feel that I am just fine after completing boot camp the way it was ran. I do not fear change. I welcome it actually. In my career you HAVE to be willing to accept change, or you are doomed. MY opinion however is that if something is to change, it needs to be done the right way, and holding a recruits hand to carry them through basic is NOT the way to build a Marine. But that is my opinion.
I was raised in the same fashion and I lead with it too. The sheltering that some children grow up in I feel is excessive. When they go through boot it has to be a real shell shock. Going from boot to fleet is a big change too because you are transitioning from not worrying about a thing to being somewhat independent to hold yourself within standards. I think they are being coddled in boot camp and also by this paper trail punishment. I feel its like telling a child no. Some Marines use it to manipulate the system to their advantage. They aren't going to stop and by the time that it catches up to them in many cases their careers are over. I think shit duties and other things that just suck assist in bringing the point home to a young Marine without causing permenant damage to their careers or getting them sent home in a box. That being said there are a few who go too far. Usually they somehow slipped through the cracks with poor leadership. In any case true hazing (not yelling) is dangerous, stupid, and blackens the eye of the command as well as the reputation of the nco's.

The attempt to fix the rise in hazing incidents was re-education. I think it was mostly successful however what happened was some peace loving hippy got their grubby hands on it and now raising your voice to correct a Marine is pushing it. Now its all how the spin is introduced into the political command arena and not what the facts are.

Do I resist change? Depends really. Good things have come with change when properly executed.
Do I resist change when the system is working? Not especially but I am more critical of the idea coming to action. If it isn't broke don't fix it and remember that a small change across the board in a military unit can take much longer to adapt and implement than originally anticipated.

Hearing your thoughts from decades ago (no offense) is good in some ways. I have learned that the jarhead clan has been fighting to keep this crap at bay for longer than I thought. I do truly feel that if you saw some of the things I have witnessed and had no power to change some of the sand I brush out might get stuck with you guys. Semper Fidelis
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:04 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by spartanhockey6 View Post
Here, but i'm a Boot. lmao.
Are you down in Horno?
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:10 PM   #264
"Pick up some speed.. You'll make it."
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Horno Sucks haha screw those condemned squad bays . . .
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:34 PM   #265
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X2 on Horno sucking ass! I wasn't a grunt so I know no stories of them condemned squad bays, only heard stories lol My barracks was across the street in that three story barracks next to the two story one that's right next to the woods/Motor T lot. When were you there? When I left in end of 2010 they were 'building' a bad ass gym but didn't get to witness the bad-assery of it.

EDIT
Oh and I was a 0621, field radio operator. I know I know, POG LIFE!
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:31 AM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmachine View Post
I was a Drill Instructor at Parris Island from 1987-1989. I had plenty of time to observe the effectiveness of a variety of leadership styles. I would not classify my own performance as anything other than average. I was in the middle of a large group of hard-working Marines doing a mostly thankless job. Everybody that I know of has some type of story to tell about their own boot camp experience that has to do with hazing or abuse of recruits. I am among that group. I flew somewhat under the radar in boot camp, until I was made a squad leader. Things got a little crazy from there, but qualifying as a Marksman on the rifle range was the end of my squad leader tenure. I graduated on schedule, one of many nameless faces in a photograph. Years later, as a Drill Instructor, memories of my own experience still fresh in my head, I figured that my recruits should have the same experience as myself, and set about creating that for them. As a student in Drill Instructor School, you need to quickly identify a "study buddy" that you can work with to make it through the curriculum. I had the amazing fortune of pairing-up with a Marine who was the real deal, a truly charismatic leader with the ability to influence and motivate recruits to strive and achieve without resorting to hazing and abuse in the process. Early on, he had difficulty with the recruit training status-quo "culture." By virtue of his rank of SSgt, though, he was promoted to the billet of Senior Drill Instructor after three or four platoons. Only then, was he able to really do what he was best at. There was no hazing or abuse in his platoons. They didn't win everything, but held their own against the other platoons in their series. The difference between his platoons and the others really became apparent in third phase. They were solid, disciplined, unflappable. Drill was not his strong point, so they never really did well at final drill competition. The thing that made me notice the most was this: At graduation, nearly all new Marines are excited and relieved to graduate and move on. They have endured what many consider, despite all its faults, a top-rank rite of passage. They shake hands, pack their seabags, and leave without looking back. My study buddy's recruits, however, were in a completely different frame of mind. They were, to a man, sad to leave. Many of them departed with tears streaming down their faces. They didn't want to leave. That, to me, says more than all of the uninformed and unenlightened dogma about what basic training is supposed to be. What I saw was rare. I thought so then, and my belief has been reinforced for decades since then. Not everyone thrust into a leadership position is capable of this level of effectiveness. We could certainly strive for it, though. Seeing it first-hand changed my entire perception of leadership. I count myself very fortunate to have been there at the right time. Abuse doesn't make any better Marines than it does sons and daughters. I've seen what it could be, and it changed my life. The best thing is, it's never too late.
Very well said. Please understand that I am not condoning the use of ABUSE. There are many different and effective ways to train and learn. Some more effective than others. I respected and appreciated all of my drill instructors. I can't give you the last name of any of my platoon leaders, or officers that I served under. But I remember the name of all 3 of my instructors. Sgt Willoughby, Sgt Dibble, and Sr Drill instructor Staff Sgt Vreeland. I respect every one of them. But I also respect the way each had their own teaching method. Semper Fi to ALL Marines. Regardless of WHEN you entered. You are still a Marine. If I made a comment or remark that made it seem like I think any less, then I offer my humblest of apologies.
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Old 02-20-2014, 01:07 AM   #267
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I find it interesting that no matter where Marines congregate, we continue to re-live and reevaluate our experiences in the Corps. We are all here because we drive the same model of pickup truck. No matter the reason, though, the transformative experience of being a Marine permeates every aspect of our lives. It has always been so. The Marine Corps grows, shrinks, and morphs to meet the needs of the nation, and generations of young (and not so young) men rise to fill the ranks. I'm one of the lucky few who can say that I never did anything else. I quit college and enlisted in 1982 at 19, and retired in 2009. I haven't worked a day since. I did (and still do) a lot of reading and thinking about what it all means. I think it's great that we can discuss this stuff. Along the way, I think that I learned a bit about the nature of Marines and the Corps, and I feel obligated to pass that on when I can. I have strong opinions about many things, forged over decades of observation and direct experience of both success and failure. I was never a grunt, but I had the joy of having a few work for me over the years. I strive never to offend. I will argue, hopefully persuasively, in a way that allows others to see what I see in Marines and the Corps. Semper Fi!
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:58 AM   #268
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I will drink to that. Well said slowmachine.
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Old 02-20-2014, 06:02 AM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmachine View Post
I find it interesting that no matter where Marines congregate, we continue to re-live and reevaluate our experiences in the Corps. We are all here because we drive the same model of pickup truck. No matter the reason, though, the transformative experience of being a Marine permeates every aspect of our lives. It has always been so. The Marine Corps grows, shrinks, and morphs to meet the needs of the nation, and generations of young (and not so young) men rise to fill the ranks. I'm one of the lucky few who can say that I never did anything else. I quit college and enlisted in 1982 at 19, and retired in 2009. I haven't worked a day since. I did (and still do) a lot of reading and thinking about what it all means. I think it's great that we can discuss this stuff. Along the way, I think that I learned a bit about the nature of Marines and the Corps, and I feel obligated to pass that on when I can. I have strong opinions about many things, forged over decades of observation and direct experience of both success and failure. I was never a grunt, but I had the joy of having a few work for me over the years. I strive never to offend. I will argue, hopefully persuasively, in a way that allows others to see what I see in Marines and the Corps. Semper Fi!
Well said. A toast to you brother! After 20 I realigned for a second career in 2011. You sir are amongst the saltiest cammies around! haha
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:41 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by CoalMedic View Post
As far as 3/4 goes, it was a great unit with great leadership. They wrote a book about my BC, Col McCoy called "McCoy's Marines". I'm mentioned in it.
I also served under Col McCoy. Great leader. During the initial push into Baghdad back in March of 03, my unit ( A Co. 3rd tracks) was attached to 3/4. I served as the crew chief of his chase vehicle.

OIF 1: Kuwait/Iraq Jan. - Jun '03.
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:51 AM   #271
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YAT-YAS! 3rd Tracks, Pendleton. C Co. "Bastard Children" and A Co.

Service Dates: 1999-2003
Rank: LCpl
MOS: 1833
Deployments:
2000-2001 6month UDP Okinawa, Camp Schwab. "tip of the nerf ball"
2003 OIF 1. Attached to 3/4. "tip of the spear"

Semper Fi Marines.
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:38 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by JoeTacoma02 View Post
Are you down in Horno?
Nah I'm in San Mateo.
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Old 02-26-2014, 08:31 PM   #273
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.
I don't condone "certain types of abuse" in basic or advanced training (hard to define here, but know it when I see it).

But I am glad that I had some "well trained & seasoned Marines" beside me in RVN (circa 1967-1968) or I would not be here today.

All of my instructors where very tough and very physical on us before RVN ... but that training really paid off later ... especially when "we had to make do with what we had" to complete the mission and survive.

I am sure it saved many Marine lives and more missions were completed successfully due to that prior difficult & rigorous training.
.
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:12 PM   #274
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Look's like we're going back to rolled sleeves.

"But Cpl, I was never taught how to roll sleeves"

Lmao
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:42 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by spartanhockey6 View Post
Look's like we're going back to rolled sleeves.

"But Cpl, I was never taught how to roll sleeves"

Lmao
This will be fun....rolling sleeves pme
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:44 AM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spartanhockey6 View Post
Look's like we're going back to rolled sleeves.

"But Cpl, I was never taught how to roll sleeves"

Lmao
That's one thing about the Corps I don't miss....the constant changes! You should take some pictures of the really messed up bags! lol
Looking at your sig trevor....I miss clemente, dana point, mateo, flores, etc. believe it or not...I even miss running the ridgelines, 1stsgt's hill, red beach, etc. hahahaha
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:20 PM   #277
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This one had me cracking up!

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Old 03-05-2014, 01:22 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by spartanhockey6 View Post
Nah I'm in San Mateo.
Ah, ok. Thought you were in Horno. I sure miss the Robertos California burritos Horno had a little stand and we called it the 'fat pill'
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Old 03-08-2014, 12:13 AM   #279
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Just graduated from MCRD San Diego today with Plt 2114 Echo Company.
Heading to ITB on April 01

Side note: Excited as all hell to get the cover off my Taco and take her for a drive
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Old 03-08-2014, 05:01 AM   #280
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CoalMedic's Avatar
Marines: now Paramedic/Firefighter
Joined: Jan 2011, #48994
Location: Southern Illinois
Gender: Dude
Posts: 395
CoalMedic's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleCoug View Post
Just graduated from MCRD San Diego today with Plt 2114 Echo Company.
Heading to ITB on April 01

Side note: Excited as all hell to get the cover off my Taco and take her for a drive
Welcome to the brotherhood, Marine.
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