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Who Should Get A ... "Purple Heart" VOTE FOR TWO

View Poll Results: State Status: Miltary, Former, Civilian/Should "non-traditional" injuries get a PH?
Military 101 62.35%
Former Military 56 34.57%
Civilian 24 14.81%
YES to PH for PTSD/Traumatic Brain Injuries/etc 97 59.88%
No to PH for PTSD/Traumatic Brain Injuries/etc 39 24.07%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 162. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-18-2011, 11:22 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c0b2a View Post
Absolutely not. I am active and I say no way. PTSD can be real yes, but its effects all depend on the person, how mentally strong they are and if they even report it. There are plenty of weak minded individuals out there that come under 1 mortar attack, shit their pants, and claim their head is fucked for the rest of there lives because of it. It is bullshit that people want an award for this.

Where are all the PTSD "survivors " from WW2. They were some shell shocked dudes, but they dealt with their issues and went home and were successful in life, and they never once asked for some award for "seeing what I did." I am not saying don't give military members help with PTSD, but at some point people need to be told to fucking suck it up and move on, that's fucking war, this is your profession by your choice.
Harden the Fuck Up - seriously a generation of touchy feely coddling to the tit retards.
WOW...wow...just wow.

What do you do in the Army?

Point by point:

PTSD...you are right, everyone deals with it differently..but we are ALL different. I know guys that are tough as nails and have seen shit 99.9999% of people have not or should not see...and they have broken down. Let me tell you something...YOU are not that tough...no one is. You are in no position to judge how one person reacts to life changing event and how it effects them. Again, maybe your breaking point is higher than most, but I assure you, you have one. We all do.

WWII...plenty of them and many will not say shit about what they saw and experienced. And many went home and DID NOT assimilate into life like you say. The did not..FACT. Some took their own lives, some became alcoholics, some just wasted away. Look into the guys who raised the flag in Iwo Jima...some of them had a tough life..some a short one. PTSD is just the latest name for an issue that has been around since rocks and spears. I know people who could take you too your breaking point before you could even shit your pants..and leave scars that would never heal. Does that make you a pussy? Nope, makes you human.

Quote:
some point people need to be told to fucking suck it up and move on, that's fucking war, this is your profession by your choice.
Harden the Fuck Up
This statement smacks of arrogance and ignorance of a real problem. I pray to God you do not lead men or are any sort of command structure with this attitude. For the reasons stated above, we all react differently and to ignore, push aside, torment, banish and individual for not "sucking it up" is irresponsible as leadership and and human being.

I am stunned the Army is wondering why the suicide rate is so high..especially with attitudes like this.

For everyone: read this book..it is required reading for some. I learned a great deal...everyone will. Even the toughest guys in the group have broken down.

http://www.amazon.com/Combat-Psychol.../dp/0964920514
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:33 AM   #22
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PH recipient here, I think TBI warrants a the PH, however since the symptoms are closely linked to PTSD ( which I have seen some people that have never seen any action claim to have) it would have to be lean to the more severe side. I suppose the golden criteria would be if the service member lost consciousness or not. Or lost vision. When I was hit I got my bell rung and was diagnosed later on with mild TBI, although there are issues that come with it I dont feel that I deserve a second PH for such a lesser case when some guys lose there speech after words.
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:44 AM   #23
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By the way...I think anyone who puts on the uniforms deserves a whole lot more than they ever get.
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Old 04-18-2011, 11:52 AM   #24
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I was shot down in Hue in 75 , broke my shoulder and jaw and messed up my back to where Im still hurting 35 plus years later and no ph for me. The ptsd that followed was even worse, I finally went to the va and went through there group meetings for 3.5 months, its not as bad as it used to be, but I still have triggers every now and then but it still sucks balls
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Old 04-18-2011, 02:14 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco Gunner View Post
WOW...wow...just wow.

What do you do in the Army?

Point by point:

PTSD...you are right, everyone deals with it differently..but we are ALL different. I know guys that are tough as nails and have seen shit 99.9999% of people have not or should not see...and they have broken down. Let me tell you something...YOU are not that tough...no one is. You are in no position to judge how one person reacts to life changing event and how it effects them. Again, maybe your breaking point is higher than most, but I assure you, you have one. We all do.

WWII...plenty of them and many will not say shit about what they saw and experienced. And many went home and DID NOT assimilate into life like you say. The did not..FACT. Some took their own lives, some became alcoholics, some just wasted away. Look into the guys who raised the flag in Iwo Jima...some of them had a tough life..some a short one. PTSD is just the latest name for an issue that has been around since rocks and spears. I know people who could take you too your breaking point before you could even shit your pants..and leave scars that would never heal. Does that make you a pussy? Nope, makes you human.



This statement smacks of arrogance and ignorance of a real problem. I pray to God you do not lead men or are any sort of command structure with this attitude. For the reasons stated above, we all react differently and to ignore, push aside, torment, banish and individual for not "sucking it up" is irresponsible as leadership and and human being.

I am stunned the Army is wondering why the suicide rate is so high..especially with attitudes like this.

For everyone: read this book..it is required reading for some. I learned a great deal...everyone will. Even the toughest guys in the group have broken down.

http://www.amazon.com/Combat-Psychol.../dp/0964920514
.

FWIW ... I work with veterans (as a volunteer) who have PTSD. And PTSD can affect ANYONE ... no matter how macho & tough you are.

Most of the severe cases of PTSD have a common thread ....... heavy firefights ... combat with very close proximity to the enemy (face to face fighting) ... seeing many casualties in your unit ... having your position over-run ... being captured ... being separated from your unit in combat ... IEDs ... survivor guilt ... and when a war is not justified (in their minds years later), PTSD seems to be higher. ... ie ... did they fight and see friends die for nothing ???

Have I seen some "goldbrickers & fakers" ... yes ... but I have also seen some who have had their lives turned upside down with PTSD too.

Personally ... I don't believe that you have to bleed to get a PH and many have shown examples of that here, with their injuries, in combat, that did not draw blood.

PTSD ... I am torn on that one for a PH ... in many cases of the serious cases of PTSD ... with some hesitation, I would vote yes.

I am not a doctor ... but I have seen some very strong and tough people struggle with PTSD. Killing people, especially up close, is very difficult to forget ... especially if you think it was for nothing.
.
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Old 04-18-2011, 02:35 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOSHeloPilot View Post
.

FWIW ... I work with veterans (as a volunteer) who have PTSD. And PTSD can affect ANYONE ... no matter how macho & tough you are.

Most of the severe cases of PTSD have a common thread ....... heavy firefights ... combat with very close proximity to the enemy (face to face fighting) ... seeing many casualties in your unit ... having your position over-run ... being captured ... being separated from your unit in combat ... IEDs ... survivor guilt ... and when a war is not justified (in their minds years later), PTSD seems to be higher. ... ie ... did they fight and see friends die for nothing ???

Have I seen some "goldbrickers & fakers" ... yes ... but I have also seen some who have had their lives turned upside down with PTSD too.

Personally ... I don't believe that you have to bleed to get a PH and many have shown examples of that here, with their injuries, in combat, that did not draw blood.

PTSD ... I am torn on that one for a PH ... in many cases of the serious cases of PTSD ... with some hesitation, I would vote yes.

I am not a doctor ... but I have seen some very strong and tough people struggle with PTSD. Killing people, especially up close, is very difficult to forget ... especially if you think it was for nothing.
.
Well said
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:03 PM   #27
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Very well said...
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:26 PM   #28
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IMO TBI rate a PH... a concussion can be a very severe injury.... as for the PTSD i think that should be on a case to case basis.... severe cases rate a purple heart bc its a very very real injury.... On a side note... a PH is one medal im glad i never earned.... I give probs to the men that have
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:31 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c0b2a View Post
Absolutely not. I am active and I say no way. PTSD can be real yes, but its effects all depend on the person, how mentally strong they are and if they even report it. There are plenty of weak minded individuals out there that come under 1 mortar attack, shit their pants, and claim their head is fucked for the rest of there lives because of it. It is bullshit that people want an award for this.

Where are all the PTSD "survivors " from WW2. They were some shell shocked dudes, but they dealt with their issues and went home and were successful in life, and they never once asked for some award for "seeing what I did." I am not saying don't give military members help with PTSD, but at some point people need to be told to fucking suck it up and move on, that's fucking war, this is your profession by your choice.
Harden the Fuck Up - seriously a generation of touchy feely coddling to the tit retards.

This is quite possibly the dumbest thing Ive ever read on TW.... Perfect example as to why i think God for not joining the Army....
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:44 PM   #30
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I am inclined to agree with c0b2a. War will affect everyone but a lot of how you deal with it depends on you. You ever see that kid that falls down but doesn't start crying until the parents run over to coddle him? This is not a blanket statement by any means and I am not trying to start the argument, just my opinion. And yes I have "been there and done that" but I don't need to put my man meat on the table to have an opinion TacoGunner

Right now if someone suffers a grade 3 concussion(basically if they black out) from a blast they receive a PH. They also get a combat action ribbon/badge(even if they weren't injured) which is a whole different debate.

PTSD should not rate a PH but more research and funding should go into helping those people who suffer from it. Take a tour of any of the major military hospitals right now and tell those double and triple amputees that you rate that same recognition and the same benefits because you can't deal with what you saw or did. If you have the balls to do that I hope they kick you in the face with their prosthesis.
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:17 PM   #31
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No one is asking to put your "man meat" on the table. It is a matter of perspective and based on your role in the military, it is a valid question. If someone who works in Finance tells me that people should quit being pussies...well, lets just say their experience may not match reality.

As for the significance "level" of a PH, no one is debating that and to bring it up is curious. Using your method of comparison, a quadruple amputee rates a PH more than a triple amputee and so on. Ridiculous argument. Last time I checked, the PH did not come with devices showing significance or severity of wound.



Quote:
Originally Posted by EODTACO View Post
I am inclined to agree with c0b2a. War will affect everyone but a lot of how you deal with it depends on you. You ever see that kid that falls down but doesn't start crying until the parents run over to coddle him? This is not a blanket statement by any means and I am not trying to start the argument, just my opinion. And yes I have "been there and done that" but I don't need to put my man meat on the table to have an opinion TacoGunner

Right now if someone suffers a grade 3 concussion(basically if they black out) from a blast they receive a PH. They also get a combat action ribbon/badge(even if they weren't injured) which is a whole different debate.

PTSD should not rate a PH but more research and funding should go into helping those people who suffer from it. Take a tour of any of the major military hospitals right now and tell those double and triple amputees that you rate that same recognition and the same benefits because you can't deal with what you saw or did. If you have the balls to do that I hope they kick you in the face with their prosthesis.
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:25 PM   #32
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Really never cared for awards they are for the parade field, not the battle field!

Very interesting debate, but like so many topics these days, people run their soup coolers about things they don't even try to understand. For those who deal with gunfighters on a regular basis, it may serve you well to educate yourself about the issues your team mates maybe dealing with.

Their problems may become your problems.

It seems to me that the bad memories are from things that happened to team mates no longer above ground, but who will Never Be Forgotten!

Recommended reading on this topic would be "ON KILLING" and "ON COMBAT" by Col David Grossman.

Thank You to EVERYONE serving, what I consider STILL the greatest Nation on earth regardless of Branch!

God Bless America, and her Warriors
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Old 04-18-2011, 07:44 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredjumper View Post
Really never cared for awards they are for the parade field, not the battle field!

Very interesting debate, but like so many topics these days, people run their soup coolers about things they don't even try to understand. For those who deal with gunfighters on a regular basis, it may serve you well to educate yourself about the issues your team mates maybe dealing with.

Their problems may become your problems.

It seems to me that the bad memories are from things that happened to team mates no longer above ground, but who will Never Be Forgotten!

Recommended reading on this topic would be "ON KILLING" and "ON COMBAT" by Col David Grossman.

Thank You to EVERYONE serving, what I consider STILL the greatest Nation on earth regardless of Branch!

God Bless America, and her Warriors
Both are great books
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:01 AM   #34
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I served in peacetime in the 80's. My Grandfather was in France in WWI. He was 15 years old when he went "over there". He had been on his own since the age of 14 (orphaned) and went to work in the Pierce Arrow auto plant in Buffalo. When America got into the war he lied about his age and joined the Army. He got gassed in the trenches, as someone else on this thread pointed out about his Grandfather also. He got no Purple Heart for it. When he got back in January 1919 one of his Aunts got wind of it and took a train down to N.J. to Ft. Dix where he was and outed him about his age. He was still not yet 17 and the Army discharged him on the spot for it. I remember he had a WWI victory Medal with three or four clasps on it, Meusse/Argonne, Somme and a couple others I think. I remember him talking once with my Uncles, saying he had applied for a pension of some sort back in the 30's for being gassed but was denied because he was discharged for lying about his age. He had bad health from it for the rest of his life. All of my Uncles and Great Uncles were WWI and WWII vets, Dad was in Korea, one cousin in Vietnam. Alll of them combat vets and none of them talked much about it ever. I think they probably did down at the V.F.W. among themselves but they were a different generation. They kept their mouths shut outside their own and dealt with it at the bar, privately.
All of the Vietnam vets still on active duty when I served were the same way. They kept to their own clique that way and never talked about their experiences in country to those who were not there.

As far as the Purple Heart goes the only thing I would really like to see is the Ft. Hood shooting victims receive their Purple Hearts. If you read the criteria for the award you will see why they have not been awarded. It would effectively identify the shooter as an enemy of the United States which I believe he is and the evidence blatantly backs that up. I hope that they are awarded but I don't think that will happen until we have our next President in office.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:39 AM   #35
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I'm AD Navy, currently deployed.

I think yes to *most* TBI's. A simple concussion that leaves little to no residual effects: no. Something that's pretty profound, sure. Usually it's up to the brigade or division surgeon to review the medical record and determine if it's severe enough. IMO, some folks get denied and others don't

PTSD? No. It's not a "wound." Sure, it's usually combat related for our troops, but you can get it from watching the Twin Towers fall (newspaper reported cases back then), from a car accident, or just from being in theater living under threat of attack long enough. In other words, it's not A) necessarily combat related, and B) it's a chemical imbalance in the brain. Sorry, but if we did PTSD, we'd have to get depression, anxiety, adjustment disorder, etc PH's too. Hell, once could argue that a diagnosis of Parkinson's or something, discovered while deployed to a war zone, could qualify too if you open up those types of diagnoses.

I'm not saying PTSD is bullshit or anything like that. Lord knows I see enough of it, and it certainly does cause personal and inter-personal problems. A PH as currently written just doesn't encompass this sort of lingering trauma.
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:51 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacomunchkin View Post
I'm still trying to convince my buddy he needs to put in for a purple heart after he slipped in a bath tub and cut himself. The best part is I spend the better part of the night in a 3rd world hospital to get him stitched up.
Sad thing is, if it happened during a mortar attack or something, he might get a PH if it was written up well. Disgusting, isn't it?
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Old 05-30-2011, 12:51 AM   #37
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I was in the Navy and got out before the current conflicts started. My experience with this comes from my dad. His guard unit was activated and sent to Iraq in 05 and he was seriously wounded by an IED in Aug, 06. His physical wounds have healed and don't bother him, so he says, I'm his son and know better. The worst thing he has had to deal with has been the combination of a TBI and PTSD. It's a struggle for him and I'm glad to say it's one he's winning. Though his short term memory has been effected pretty badly and he still has trouble controlling his emotions on occasion. He's cussed me on a couple of occasions but always came back and apologized. I always tell him it's ok I've been cussed worse by criminals and what not. I firmly believe that PTSD should get the PH if it has been reliably diagnosed and comes from combat. I've seen what it's done to a cousin who served three tours in Vietnam and to my friends that have served in both OIF and OEF. It does more damage than a bullet or shrapnel ever could.
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Old 05-30-2011, 01:15 AM   #38
U no kea but AINOFEA!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOSHeloPilot View Post
.

FWIW ... I work with veterans (as a volunteer) who have PTSD. And PTSD can affect ANYONE ... no matter how macho & tough you are.

Most of the severe cases of PTSD have a common thread ....... heavy firefights ... combat with very close proximity to the enemy (face to face fighting) ... seeing many casualties in your unit ... having your position over-run ... being captured ... being separated from your unit in combat ... IEDs ... survivor guilt ... and when a war is not justified (in their minds years later), PTSD seems to be higher. ... ie ... did they fight and see friends die for nothing ???

Have I seen some "goldbrickers & fakers" ... yes ... but I have also seen some who have had their lives turned upside down with PTSD too.

Personally ... I don't believe that you have to bleed to get a PH and many have shown examples of that here, with their injuries, in combat, that did not draw blood.

PTSD ... I am torn on that one for a PH ... in many cases of the serious cases of PTSD ... with some hesitation, I would vote yes.

I am not a doctor ... but I have seen some very strong and tough people struggle with PTSD. Killing people, especially up close, is very difficult to forget ... especially if you think it was for nothing.
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+1

Im medical, deployed twice, and can tell you that I have PTSD even though I only went outside the wire once on a medivac. My roommate in Mosul (another nurse) was seeing psych while deployed. Another from my unit was knocked on her ass from a rocket attack in Balad and sent home with severe PTSD - couldn't sleep more then a few hours at a time and only in the hospital (which in Balad is tenting). Another 2 were hit with mortar shrapnel on base and received a PH - at least 1 of them was med boarded for PTSD.

My cousin was a medic in Mosul area and is in the process of being rated for PTSD (did a lot of convoys).

Say what you will about medical but we did a ton of stuff that wouldn't pass any legal test in the states in the effort of keeping everyone we took care of alive. One of the worst aspects is guilt and uncertainty. We have no clue what happened to those we took care of - might sound weak to some but when you do everything you can to save a life you become as close to that soldier as his battle buddy. I can personally say that Ive run over, donated blood, then saw it come back in and put into the patient I was caring for.

Could I justify a PH for what I went through - I dont think so. Would I like it to be recognized and treated by "the system" for what happened and it's after effects - Damn straight!

In the end I can honestly say - I dont give a damn what you wear on your chest (I know some that never left Kuwait in 2003 that received Bronze Stars). I know what I did and my family knows that I'm a little fucked up because of it and that I still cant talk about it. What matters to me is that I did my best with what I had and served honorably in the process.

I never signed up to earn awards.


***edit*** - its well known that theres a huge homeless population of vets, many of whom started self medicating with alcohol and drugs because of what they experienced (TBI, PTSD, etc) and it's only now that our technology and understanding has come to the point that we can recognize and diagnose these problems. Lets all hope the VA can get their shit together and start improving services and ratings for service members of our current wars.
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Old 05-30-2011, 01:49 AM   #39
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Quad D will become famous soon enough
Army: 4ID 1BCT, CET/PSD 2tours
Name: Quad
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This is ANOTHER system in the military I don't feel is broken at all. PH already has a definition and should stick to that so as to not downgrade what it is given for. Like a lot of other "medals" in the military I've seen people try to construe it to keep as a badge of "what they did". I don't wear medals at home, hell I don't wear them on my combat or duty uniform. I don't know if it's the license plates or the free college for the kids everyone wants, and I don't care. I haven't earned a PH. I don't EVER want one. Over 700 patrols, and I would rather just stop being out there at this point. I'm tired of seeing "blanket" awards. BSM for every E7 is what it used to be. Now half of the SGT's I know are getting them for NOTHING. "Blanket" CAB's....hell let's just blanket everything and downplay the value of EVERY medal ever given. All these medals have a definition, let's all just stick to the definitions, and if a new medal is necessary how about we make a new medal so as to not change the meaning of the medals that have already been given.
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Old 05-30-2011, 01:55 AM   #40
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Quad D will become famous soon enough
Army: 4ID 1BCT, CET/PSD 2tours
Name: Quad
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Oh, and IMHO PH is NOT for PTSD. There are other systems for medical conditions such as that. For some it is VERY real, most if not all can recover from it eventually. But then there is question....is it something that the ENEMY did TO them, or is it a result of their mental state + physical fitness + morale + actual event(s) + treatment afterwards??? There is no doubt if a piece of shrapnel/bullet hits anyone the effects are the same, but when we talk about head cases (no disrespect intended) it's VERY murky waters. Kids get out for "PTSD" from the soft a@@ basic training they got now....Not exactly a clear definition for a PH. Who would wear a PH for PTSD I wonder??? I wouldn't want to talk about it if I didn't have to work past it, and once I did I'd let it go unless I was helping another get past it. I know more guys personally that don't wear medals than those that do.
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