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Old 01-26-2013, 10:38 AM   #41
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I agree that standards must be upheld, but the thought that women are the only reason standards are lowered is a fallacy. I remember when the Army's PT test was lowered because the guys weren't passing the test in high enough numbers.

The PT test is the minimum anyways. The teams and units I worked with would not have settled for the minimum and neither should you or yours.
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Old 01-26-2013, 11:44 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Janster View Post
Nothing wrong with it....... As long as they can handle the job required of them, so be it. There shouldn't be any 'exceptions' in terms of requirements, expectations, and job performance. If they can't handle it (ALL aspects of it), they shouldn't be there. Same for the men...If they can't handle it, they shouldn't be there.
/ THREAD.
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Old 01-26-2013, 03:00 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Redfox1 View Post
Don't think anyone who hasn't been on the frontlines and experienced it first hand should honestly have a say. Everyone who hasn't experienced it first hand can only imagine what it would be like.
Exactly...

this guy sums up all my reasons for why i am against this... He is more eloquent than me and I would just turn this into a rant...
http://youtu.be/fy--whDNNKk
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Old 01-26-2013, 03:26 PM   #44
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I'm all for it- they just gotta be able to keep up. As long as they can meet the same standards that the men have to meet, then I have no problem with it.
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Old 01-26-2013, 04:50 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brown View Post
I agree that standards must be upheld, but the thought that women are the only reason standards are lowered is a fallacy. I remember when the Army's PT test was lowered because the guys weren't passing the test in high enough numbers.

The PT test is the minimum anyways. The teams and units I worked with would not have settled for the minimum and neither should you or yours.
You must not work in the same Coast Guard that I did....



Whenever I administered the PFT, everyone that wasn't in shape was like, So uh, what do I have to do to pass?
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:00 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by tacomathom View Post
No, I'd like them to be allowed to do any job they are qualified to do, but I still don't like it.
I guess I misunderstood your statement in light of the conversation we are having...My bad!! I don't think anyone WANTS family members to have to to war...but that isn't really the discussion here.

People are going to war...and telling a female that she can't possibly qualify just because she is female doesn't make sense. I know plenty of women who could beat my ass and/or keep up with special operators PT tests and/or keep cool under combat pressure, and I know guys that can't. It should not be a gender divide...It should be a skills divide.

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Originally Posted by Redfox1 View Post
Don't think anyone who hasn't been on the frontlines and experienced it first hand should honestly have a say. Everyone who hasn't experienced it first hand can only imagine what it would be like.
So-Have you served?? I don't see a civil service emblem on your profile...so I'm curious.

And lets be honest...There are plenty of very public failures in judgement from the "front lines" in recent history and centuries of war atrocities by all sorts of front line warriors. They should certainly have some say in it, but closing out everyone elses input doesn't make sense.
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:03 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KodiakToyTRD View Post
You must not work in the same Coast Guard that I did....



Whenever I administered the PFT, everyone that wasn't in shape was like, So uh, what do I have to do to pass?
Ha, weren't you Alaska PD? I've seen some tier 3 units like that. It made me sad

I was lucky enough never to have been stationed somewhere that I had to deal with the non-motivated types. If I have to one day, I'm lucky enough to be in a position to change it.
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:06 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brown View Post
I was lucky enough not to have to deal with that.
I would send out the email, PFT coming up!!!

Then I'd see maybe one or two 1st classes in the gym once about a week before hand "getting ready".

Really guys?
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:21 AM   #50
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Maybe this is a non-issue for me, for my entire career we've allowed women in Combat Arms. In fact, they've been permitted for 22 years.

I'm of the opinion that as long as you can pass the standards, I don't care what you have between your legs, you can do the job.

My last deployment was mostly spent doing dismounted ops in the Arghandab river valley. We had a couple of women in the Sqn I worked with, and they were both a Combat Arms trade. The humped the same patrols as us, carried the same combat loads, slept in the same holes and fought in the same fights.

Yeah, some women can't do the jobs. I also know men who can't. I'll never take anything away from someone who wants to do the job, and has the mental and physical ability to do it.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:16 PM   #51
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It would be awesome if the world was as easy as you put it Beadwindow. But unit cohesion will go to an all time low with girls sleeping with different dudes and jealousy issues.

It would be cool if this could happen but too many other problems would happen for me to approve this.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:40 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svach11 View Post
It would be awesome if the world was as easy as you put it Beadwindow. But unit cohesion will go to an all time low with girls sleeping with different dudes and jealousy issues.

It would be cool if this could happen but too many other problems would happen for me to approve this.
What you're missing is that the Canadian military and many others are already doing this and it has worked for them for some time now. All the reasons people are coming up with are just moral defense mechanisms thought up to justify their negative opinions of women. The bottom line is that it works for other countries and it can work for us too.

If you're really fighting for equality, justice, and freedom then think of this as another battle. If it's hard to adjust, remember that "America the free" is only a dream for these women. They are not free and they are not equal. If women want to fight, and possibly die, for our country, shouldn't we fight for them too?
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:34 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KodiakToyTRD View Post
I would send out the email, PFT coming up!!!

Then I'd see maybe one or two 1st classes in the gym once about a week before hand "getting ready".

Really guys?
See that all the time!!!
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:14 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brown View Post
What you're missing is that the Canadian military and many others are already doing this and it has worked for them for some time now. All the reasons people are coming up with are just moral defense mechanisms thought up to justify their negative opinions of women. The bottom line is that it works for other countries and it can work for us too.

If you're really fighting for equality, justice, and freedom then think of this as another battle. If it's hard to adjust, remember that "America the free" is only a dream for these women. They are not free and they are not equal. If women want to fight, and possibly die, for our country, shouldn't we fight for them too?

It's not justification, it's how the infantry works. Everyone I talk to in my company feels the same way. We make sexual jokes 24/7 and mess with each other as brothers would do. We can't be this close nit with woman around and us getting equal opportunity complaints (EO) by femals.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned then but I think I would like the woman of America to be protected and the men that are willing to put there life on the line should do so. If you can't be on the frontline as a man then it's not your problem to worry about.

My other argument is there is no pt test to drag me across a field but MOST woman would not be able to drag me at 180LBS plus 30LBS for my gear out of the kill zone. Maybe some men can't but my odds are better.... And I'm one of the smaller guys in my unit.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:18 AM   #55
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Like every coin there are two sides. I see the need as a man to inherently want to keep women away from danger and it must be frustrating to have people think that that feeling is coming from a bad place.
I guess the real concern comes from the adjustments that will be made to accommodate the new situation. I can't argue with a guys who is concerned about who is watching his ass i would have the same concern regardless of gender. it will be interesting to see who this plays out in the long run. I know this situation exists in other country but america is a hell of an animal.

'Merica!
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:46 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by inthebag87 View Post
Like every coin there are two sides. I see the need as a man to inherently want to keep women away from danger and it must be frustrating to have people think that that feeling is coming from a bad place.
I guess the real concern comes from the adjustments that will be made to accommodate the new situation. I can't argue with a guys who is concerned about who is watching his ass i would have the same concern regardless of gender. it will be interesting to see who this plays out in the long run. I know this situation exists in other country but america is a hell of an animal.

'Merica!
Yes, thank you. Even if you're not picking sides... At least you understood my point and maybe made it sound a little clearer.

It's true, I'm not meaning to put any of this in bad light. Just real concerns in my mind.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:35 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svach11 View Post
It would be awesome if the world was as easy as you put it Beadwindow. But unit cohesion will go to an all time low with girls sleeping with different dudes and jealousy issues.

It would be cool if this could happen but too many other problems would happen for me to approve this.
I definitely see where you're coming from. We call those kinds of chicks "groundsheets". But honestly, I've never seen big issues at the level that you'd think. Most girls I've worked or served with have been one of the guys, joking and smoking with the rest of us. And I'm about as PC as 1930's marketing. In my troop, the only thing off limits for jokes is wives and kids. And we do have fraternization rules when it comes to relationships in the same chain of command.

As far as jealousy and fighting over women, I've seen it happen about as much guys fighting over chicks at the local off-base bar, or sleeping with exes. And I haven't seen it very much.

Personally, I think it all depend on the professionalism of the girls who want to do the job. The ones I know who are good want to leave no room for question and try to exceed all standards. And really, most of the ones who truly want to be combat arms want to do the job. They aren't just doing it for the sake of saying that they can do it as a girl. Besides, it's funny as hell when one of the girls tells a guy who's complaining to get the sand out of his vagina.

As far as physical demands, our Battlefield fitness test has the same standard for everyone, and does include a casualty drag of a standard weight. Things are different everywhere.

I can definitely see it being a culture shock, and I do understand the concerns at the first line. I know it was a big thing at the Battalions when it first started happening here. And maybe it's a cultural difference between you guys and us. I can't say either way. But I've seen it work throughout my career.

As a man, yeah, it seemed to hit me harder when I lost a female comrade as opposed to a male one. Maybe that's the genetics of being a man. But either way, we carried on and did the job, and remembered the ones who gave their lives doing their duty, regardless of sex.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:13 PM   #58
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When I was in, I def knew some chics that could hack anything more than some dudes I knew. But those chics were the minority of the ones I knew. There is no doubt that there are chics capable of doing combat missions. There are dudes that cant. But my concern would be the jealously issues with a chic hooking up with a dude, and a girl walking into the locker room environment and getting offended. Then it becomes a shit storm. And its not like there isn't a sexual assualt problem in the military to begin with. I felt like that was half my training.

The other issue is I feel this is more political than anything. There is no need for women in combat. We are not in a war where we need bodies, we are not being invaded, these are not desperate times. So its most likely a chic wanted to check the box get a combat role and make a promotion and wrote her congeress person about it causing a stink. Now its a personal agenda for both parties. Other countries such as Israel, face a threat in daily life and its part of their duty to serve. Same with teh Swiss but there not fighting anyone. There was a Russian sniper in WW2 that was a chic that had more kills than anyone on the eastern front. But once again those were desperate times.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:19 PM   #59
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I dont think there will be too much of an issue. Only a certain kind of chick will even want to do it, let alone attempt it, and let alone pass. Same thing when chicks were finally allowed to enter the Citadel.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:22 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beadwindow View Post
I definitely see where you're coming from. We call those kinds of chicks "groundsheets". But honestly, I've never seen big issues at the level that you'd think. Most girls I've worked or served with have been one of the guys, joking and smoking with the rest of us. And I'm about as PC as 1930's marketing. In my troop, the only thing off limits for jokes is wives and kids. And we do have fraternization rules when it comes to relationships in the same chain of command.

As far as jealousy and fighting over women, I've seen it happen about as much guys fighting over chicks at the local off-base bar, or sleeping with exes. And I haven't seen it very much.

Personally, I think it all depend on the professionalism of the girls who want to do the job. The ones I know who are good want to leave no room for question and try to exceed all standards. And really, most of the ones who truly want to be combat arms want to do the job. They aren't just doing it for the sake of saying that they can do it as a girl. Besides, it's funny as hell when one of the girls tells a guy who's complaining to get the sand out of his vagina.

As far as physical demands, our Battlefield fitness test has the same standard for everyone, and does include a casualty drag of a standard weight. Things are different everywhere.

I can definitely see it being a culture shock, and I do understand the concerns at the first line. I know it was a big thing at the Battalions when it first started happening here. And maybe it's a cultural difference between you guys and us. I can't say either way. But I've seen it work throughout my career.

As a man, yeah, it seemed to hit me harder when I lost a female comrade as opposed to a male one. Maybe that's the genetics of being a man. But either way, we carried on and did the job, and remembered the ones who gave their lives doing their duty, regardless of sex.

Very well put my friend. +1 for you
Thank you for the great discussion
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