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Creationism vs. Evolution

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Old 10-28-2008, 05:05 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by PhoenixCadet View Post
Plant systems...
the human body...
the infinite vastness of state...
...just look around you.

I'm all for anyone having their own opinions, I just simply find it difficult to swallow that you think all of this, as complex as it is, came about from "nothing".
See, that's my big problem with creationism. Rather than search for a real answer, based in fact, creationists decided that the simple answer is to state that this is all too complex to have happened randomly,and therefore a supreme being has done it all. Science be damned.
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:07 PM   #42
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See, that's my big problem with creationism. Rather than search for a real answer, based in fact, creationists decided that the simple answer is to state that this is all too complex to have happened randomly,and therefore a supreme being has done it all. Science be damned.
yep...carbon dating is flawed and made up as well. nothing in the universe is older than like...5000-6000 years...or whatever the bible says.

organized religion is like organized crime....in it for the quick buck by scaring people into submission
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:07 PM   #43
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See, that's my big problem with creationism. Rather than search for a real answer, based in fact, creationists decided that the simple answer is to state that this is all too complex to have happened randomly,and therefore a supreme being has done it all. Science be damned.
Scientists have been at it for how many thousands of years? How much longer is it goin' to take?
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:08 PM   #44
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Scientists have been at it for how many thousands of years? How much longer is it goin' to take?
Well considering that it took a few million years to figure out the wheel and fire, I imagine a really long time.
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:09 PM   #45
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yep...carbon dating is flawed and made up as well. nothing in the universe is older than like...5000-6000 years...or whatever the bible says.
That just proves your ignorance and flat out stupidity. You have no clue what the hell you're talking about, yet you say crap like that like you actually know the Bible and can logically debate. The Bible doesn't say that. Go study all sides before debating.
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:12 PM   #46
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Well considering that it took a few million years to figure out the wheel and fire, I imagine a really long time.


I just read somewhere that they invented the zipper in the late 1800's. You'd think they'd be able to figure that one out before something like the telephone.
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:13 PM   #47
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That just proves your ignorance and flat out stupidity. You have no clue what the hell you're talking about, yet you say crap like that like you actually know the Bible and can logically debate. The Bible doesn't say that. Go study all sides before debating.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...w-old-is-earth

BELOW ME! and that comes from one of ur supporters websites....
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:15 PM   #48
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yep...carbon dating is flawed and made up as well. nothing in the universe is older than like...5000-6000 years...or whatever the bible says.

organized religion is like organized crime....in it for the quick buck by scaring people into submission
Much more where this came from.
Doesn’t Carbon-14 Dating Disprove the Bible?


by Mike Riddle

September 20, 2007


Layman
Keywords
  • author-mike-riddle
  • carbon-14
  • radiometric-dating
  • rate



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Scientists use a technique called radiometric dating to estimate the ages of rocks, fossils, and the earth. Many people have been led to believe that radiometric dating methods have proved the earth to be billions of years old. This has caused many in the church to reevaluate the biblical creation account, specifically the meaning of the word “day” in Genesis 1. With our focus on one particular form of radiometric dating—carbon dating—we will see that carbon dating strongly supports a young earth.
Basics

Before we get into the details of how radiometric dating methods are used, we need to review some preliminary concepts from chemistry. Recall that atoms are the basic building blocks of matter. Atoms are made up of much smaller particles called protons, neutrons, and electrons. Protons and neutrons make up the center (nucleus) of the atom, and electrons form shells around the nucleus.
The number of protons in the nucleus of an atom determines the element. For example, all carbon atoms have 6 protons, all atoms of nitrogen have 7 protons, and all oxygen atoms have 8 protons. The number of neutrons in the nucleus can vary in any given type of atom. So, a carbon atom might have six neutrons, or seven, or possibly eight—but it would always have six protons. An “isotope” is any of several different forms of an element, each having different numbers of neutrons. The illustration below shows the three isotopes of carbon.
The atomic number corresponds to the number of protons in an atom. Atomic mass is a combination of the number of protons and neutrons in the nucleus. (The electrons are so much lighter that they do not contribute significantly to the mass of an atom.)

Some isotopes of certain elements are unstable; they can spontaneously change into another kind of atom in a process called “radioactive decay.” Since this process happens at a known rate, scientists attempt to use it like a “clock” to tell how long ago a rock or fossil formed. There are two main applications for radiometric dating. One is for dating fossils (once-living things) using carbon-14 dating, and the other is for dating rocks and the age of the earth.
Carbon-14 Dating

Carbon-14 (14C), also referred to as radiocarbon, is claimed to be a reliable dating method for determining the age of fossils up to 50,000 to 60,000 years. If this claim is true, the biblical account of a young earth (about 6,000 years) is in question, since 14C dates of tens of thousands of years are common.1
When a scientist’s interpretation of data does not match the clear meaning of the text in the Bible, we should never reinterpret the Bible. God knows just what He meant to say, and His understanding of science is infallible, whereas ours is fallible. So we should never think it necessary to modify His Word. Genesis 1 defines the days of creation to be literal days (a number with the word “day” always means a normal day in the Old Testament, and the phrase “evening and morning” further defines the days as literal days). Since the Bible is the inspired Word of God, we should examine the validity of the standard interpretation of 14C dating by asking several questions:
  1. Is the explanation of the data derived from empirical, observational science, or an interpretation of past events (historical science)?
  2. Are there any assumptions involved in the dating method?
  3. Are the dates provided by 14C dating consistent with what we observe?
  4. Do all scientists accept the 14C dating method as reliable and accurate?
All radiometric dating methods use scientific procedures in the present to interpret what has happened in the past. The procedures used are not necessarily in question. The interpretation of past events is in question. The secular (evolutionary) worldview interprets the universe and world to be billions of years old. The Bible teaches a young universe and earth. Which worldview does science support? Can carbon-14 dating help solve the mystery of which worldview is more accurate?
The use of carbon-14 dating is often misunderstood. Carbon-14 is mostly used to date once-living things (organic material). It cannot be used directly to date rocks; however, it can be used to put time constraints on some inorganic material such as diamonds (diamonds contain carbon-14). Because of the rapid rate of decay of 14C, it can only give dates in the thousands-of-year range and not millions.
There are three different naturally occurring varieties (isotopes) of carbon: 12C, 13C, and 14C.
Carbon-14 is used for dating because it is unstable (radioactive), whereas 12C and 13C are stable. Radioactive means that 14C will decay (emit radiation) over time and become a different element. During this process (called “beta decay”) a neutron in the 14C atom will be converted into a proton. By losing one neutron and gaining one proton, 14C is changed into nitrogen-14 (14N = 7 protons and 7 neutrons).
If 14C is constantly decaying, will the earth eventually run out of 14C? The answer is no. Carbon-14 is constantly being added to the atmosphere. Cosmic rays from outer space, which contain high levels of energy, bombard the earth’s upper atmosphere. These cosmic rays collide with atoms in the atmosphere and can cause them to come apart. Neutrons that come from these fragmented atoms collide with 14N atoms (the atmosphere is made mostly of nitrogen and oxygen) and convert them into 14C atoms (a proton changes into a neutron).

Once 14C is produced, it combines with oxygen in the atmosphere (12C behaves like 14C and also combines with oxygen) to form carbon dioxide (CO2). Because CO2 gets incorporated into plants (which means the food we eat contains 14C and 12C), all living things should have the same ratio of 14C and 12C in them as in the air we breathe.
How the Carbon-14 Dating Process Works

Once a living thing dies, the dating process begins. As long as an organism is alive it will continue to take in 14C; however, when it dies, it will stop. Since 14C is radioactive (decays into 14N), the amount of 14C in a dead organism gets less and less over time. Therefore, part of the dating process involves measuring the amount of 14C that remains after some has been lost (decayed). Scientists now use a device called an “Accelerator Mass Spectrometer” (AMS) to determine the ratio of 14C to 12C, which increases the assumed accuracy to about 80,000 years. In order to actually do the dating, other things need to be known. Two such things include the following questions:
  1. How fast does 14C decay?
  2. What was the starting amount of 14C in the creature when it died?
The decay rate of radioactive elements is described in terms of half-life. The half-life of an atom is the amount of time it takes for half of the atoms in a sample to decay. The half-life of 14C is 5,730 years. For example, a jar starting with all 14C atoms at time zero will contain half 14C atoms and half 14N atoms at the end of 5,730 years (one half-life). At the end of 11,460 years (two half-lives) the jar will contain one-quarter 14C atoms and three-quarter 14N atoms.
Since the half-life of 14C is known (how fast it decays), the only part left to determine is the starting amount of 14C in a fossil. If scientists know the original amount of 14C in a creature when it died, they can measure the current amount and then calculate how many half-lives have passed.
Since no one was there to measure the amount of 14C when a creature died, scientists need to find a method to determine how much 14C has decayed. To do this, scientists use the main isotope of carbon, called carbon-12 (12C). Because 12C is a stable isotope of carbon, it will remain constant; however, the amount of 14C will decrease after a creature dies. All living things take in carbon (14C and 12C) from eating and breathing. Therefore, the ratio of 14C to 12C in living creatures will be the same as in the atmosphere. This ratio turns out to be about one 14C atom for every 1 trillion 12C atoms. Scientists can use this ratio to help determine the starting amount of 14C.
When an organism dies, this ratio (1 to 1 trillion) will begin to change. The amount of 12C will remain constant, but the amount of 14C will become less and less. The smaller the ratio, the longer the organism has been dead. The following illustration demonstrates how the age is estimated using this ratio.
Percent 14C RemainingPercent 12C Remaining RatioNumber of Half-LivesYears Dead(Age of Fossil)1001001 to 1T00501001 to 2T15,730251001 to 4T211,46012.51001 to 8T317,1906.251001 to 16T422,9203.1251001 to 32T528,650T = Trillion
A Critical Assumption

A critical assumption used in carbon-14 dating has to do with this ratio. It is assumed that the ratio of 14C to 12C in the atmosphere has always been the same as it is today (1 to 1 trillion). If this assumption is true, then the AMS 14C dating method is valid up to about 80,000 years. Beyond this number, the instruments scientists use would not be able to detect enough remaining 14C to be useful in age estimates. This is a critical assumption in the dating process. If this assumption is not true, then the method will give incorrect dates. What could cause this ratio to change? If the production rate of 14C in the atmosphere is not equal to the removal rate (mostly through decay), this ratio will change. In other words, the amount of 14C being produced in the atmosphere must equal the amount being removed to be in a steady state (also called “equilibrium”). If this is not true, the ratio of 14C to 12C is not a constant, which would make knowing the starting amount of 14C in a specimen difficult or impossible to accurately determine.
Dr. Willard Libby, the founder of the carbon-14 dating method, assumed this ratio to be constant. His reasoning was based on a belief in evolution, which assumes the earth must be billions of years old. Assumptions in the scientific community are extremely important. If the starting assumption is false, all the calculations based on that assumption might be correct but still give a wrong conclusion.
In Dr. Libby’s original work, he noted that the atmosphere did not appear to be in equilibrium. This was a troubling idea for Dr. Libby since he believed the world was billions of years old and enough time had passed to achieve equilibrium. Dr. Libby’s calculations showed that if the earth started with no 14C in the atmosphere, it would take up to 30,000 years to build up to a steady state (equilibrium).
If the cosmic radiation has remained at its present intensity for 20,000 or 30,000 years, and if the carbon reservoir has not changed appreciably in this time, then there exists at the present time a complete balance between the rate of disintegration of radiocarbon atoms and the rate of assimilation of new radiocarbon atoms for all material in the life-cycle.2
Dr. Libby chose to ignore this discrepancy (nonequilibrium state), and he attributed it to experimental error. However, the discrepancy has turned out to be very real. The ratio of 14C /12C is not constant.
The Specific Production Rate (SPR) of C-14 is known to be 18.8 atoms per gram of total carbon per minute. The Specific Decay Rate (SDR) is known to be only 16.1 disintegrations per gram per minute.3
What does this mean? If it takes about 30,000 years to reach equilibrium and 14C is still out of equilibrium, then maybe the earth is not very old.
Magnetic Field of the Earth

Other factors can affect the production rate of 14C in the atmosphere. The earth has a magnetic field around it which helps protect us from harmful radiation from outer space. This magnetic field is decaying (getting weaker). The stronger the field is around the earth, the fewer the number of cosmic rays that are able to reach the atmosphere. This would result in a smaller production of 14C in the atmosphere in earth’s past.
The cause for the long term variation of the C-14 level is not known. The variation is certainly partially the result of a change in the cosmic ray production rate of radiocarbon. The cosmic-ray flux, and hence the production rate of C-14, is a function not only of the solar activity but also of the magnetic dipole moment of the Earth.4
Though complex, this history of the earth’s magnetic field agrees with Barnes’ basic hypothesis, that the field has always freely decayed.... The field has always been losing energy despite its variations, so it cannot be more than 10,000 years old.5
Earth’s magnetic field is fading. Today it is about 10 percent weaker than it was when German mathematician Carl Friedrich Gauss started keeping tabs on it in 1845, scientists say.6
If the production rate of 14C in the atmosphere was less in the past, dates given using the carbon-14 method would incorrectly assume that more 14C had decayed out of a specimen than what has actually occurred. This would result in giving older dates than the true age.
Genesis Flood

What role might the Genesis Flood have played in the amount of carbon? The Flood would have buried large amounts of carbon from living organisms (plant and animal) to form today’s fossil fuels (coal, oil, etc.). The amount of fossil fuels indicates there must have been a vastly larger quantity of vegetation in existence prior to the Flood than exists today. This means that the biosphere just prior to the Flood might have had 500 times more carbon in living organisms than today. This would further dilute the amount of 14C and cause the 14C/12C ratio to be much smaller than today.
If that were the case, and this C-14 were distributed uniformly throughout the biosphere, and the total amount of biosphere C were, for example, 500 times that of today’s world, the resulting C-14/C-12 ratio would be 1/500 of today’s level....7
When the Flood is taken into account along with the decay of the magnetic field, it is reasonable to believe that the assumption of equilibrium is a false assumption.
Because of this false assumption, any age estimates using 14C prior to the Flood will give much older dates than the true age. Pre-Flood material would be dated at perhaps ten times the true age.
The RATE Group Findings

In 1997 an eight-year research project was started to investigate the age of the earth. The group was called the RATE group (Radioisotopes and the Age of The Earth). The team of scientists included:The objective was to gather data commonly ignored or censored by evolutionary standards of dating. The scientists reviewed the assumptions and procedures used in estimating the ages of rocks and fossils. The results of the carbon-14 dating demonstrated serious problems for long geologic ages. Samples were taken from ten different coal layers that, according to evolutionists, represent different time periods in the geologic column (Cenozoic, Mesozoic, and Paleozoic). The RATE group obtained ten coal samples from the U.S. Department of Energy Coal Sample Bank. These coal samples were collected from major coalfields across the United States. The coal samples, which dated millions to hundreds of millions of years old based on standard evolution time estimates, all contained measurable amounts of 14C. In all cases, careful precautions were taken to eliminate any possibility of contamination from other sources. Samples in all three “time periods” displayed significant amounts of 14C. This is a significant discovery. Since the half-life of 14C is relatively short (5,730 years), there should be no detectable 14C left after about 100,000 years. The average 14C estimated age for all the layers from these three time periods was approximately 50,000 years. However, using a more realistic pre-Flood 14C/12C ratio reduces that age to about 5,000 years.
These results indicate that the entire geologic column is less than 100,000 years old—and could be much younger. This confirms the Bible and challenges the evolutionary idea of long geologic ages.
Because the lifetime of C-14 is so brief, these AMS [Accelerator Mass Spectrometer] measurements pose an obvious challenge to the standard geological timescale that assigns millions to hundreds of millions of years to this part of the rock layer.8
Another noteworthy observation from the RATE group was the amount of 14C found in diamonds. Secular scientists have estimated the ages of diamonds to be millions to billions of years old using other radiometric dating methods. These methods are also based on questionable assumptions and are discussed in chapter 9. Because of their hardness, diamonds (the hardest known substance) are extremely resistant to contamination through chemical exchange. Since diamonds are considered to be so old by evolutionary standards, finding any 14C in them would be strong support for a recent creation.
The RATE group analyzed twelve diamond samples for possible carbon-14 content. Similar to the coal results, all twelve diamond samples contained detectable, but lower levels of 14C. These findings are powerful evidence that coal and diamonds cannot be the millions or billions of years old that evolutionists claim. Carbon-14 found in fossils at all layers of the geologic column, in coal and in diamonds, is evidence which confirms the biblical timescale of thousands of years and not billions.
Because of C-14’s short half-life, such a finding would argue that carbon and probably the entire physical earth as well must have a recent origin.9
Conclusion

All radiometric dating methods are based on assumptions about events that happened in the past. If the assumptions are accepted as true (as is typically done in the evolutionary dating processes), results can be biased toward a desired age. In the reported ages given in textbooks and other journals, these evolutionary assumptions have not been questioned, while results inconsistent with long ages have been censored. When the assumptions were evaluated and shown faulty, the results supported the biblical account of a global Flood and young earth. Christians should not be afraid of radiometric dating methods. Carbon-14 dating is really the friend of Christians, and it supports a young earth.
The RATE scientists are convinced that the popular idea attributed to geologist Charles Lyell from nearly two centuries ago, “The present is the key to the past,” is simply not valid for an earth history of millions or billions of years. An alternative interpretation of the carbon-14 data is that the earth experienced a global flood catastrophe which laid down most of the rock strata and fossils.... Whatever the source of the carbon-14, its presence in nearly every sample tested worldwide is a strong challenge to an ancient age. Carbon-14 data is now firmly on the side of the young-earth view of history.10
Footnotes
  1. Earth Science (Teachers Edition), Prentice Hall, 2002, 301. Back
  2. W. Libby, Radiocarbon Dating, Univ. of Chicago Press, Chicago, Illinois, 1952, 8. Back
  3. C. Sewell, “Carbon-14 and the Age of the Earth,” 1999. www.rae.org/bits23.htm. Back
  4. M. Stuiver and H. Suess, On the relationship between radiocarbon dates and true sample ages, Radiocarbon, Vol. 8, 1966, 535. Back
  5. R. Humphreys, The mystery of earth’s magnetic field, ICR Impact, Feb 1, 1989. www.icr.org/article/292. Back
  6. J. Roach, National Geographic News, September 9, 2004. Back
  7. J. Baumgarder, C-14 evidence for a recent global Flood and a young earth, Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth, Vol. 2, Institute for Creation Research, Santee, California, 2005, 618. Back
  8. Ibid., 587. Back
  9. Ibid., 609. Back
  10. D. DeYoung, Thousands ... Not Billions, Master Books, Green Forest, Arkansas, 2005, 61. Back
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:16 PM   #49
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That just proves your ignorance and flat out stupidity. You have no clue what the hell you're talking about, yet you say crap like that like you actually know the Bible and can logically debate. The Bible doesn't say that. Go study all sides before debating.
You are referring to "Young Earth Creationism", in which believers think that the earth was created between 6-10,000 years ago.

Aren't you one of the ones who got your panties in a bunch over those who called Obama followers socialists, or even, *gasp* communists? Seems to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black. We can't judge like that, but you can go ahead and say all Christians believe this - which they don't.

Right.
 
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Originally Posted by PhoenixCadet View Post
You are referring to "Young Earth Creationism", in which believers think that the earth was created between 6-10,000 years ago.

Aren't you one of the ones who got your panties in a bunch over those who called Obama followers socialists, or even, *gasp* communists? Seems to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black. We can't judge like that, but you can go ahead and say all Christians believe this - which they don't.

Right.
i said that the bible says...i could careless what ever single person believed in
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:18 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhodge83 View Post
http://www.answersingenesis.org/arti...w-old-is-earth

BELOW ME! and that comes from one of ur supporters websites....
Thank you for proving my point, yet again. It's called Young Earth Creationism. I think "Young Earth" Creationism is a pile of crap.
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:18 PM   #52
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Phoenix what makes you so curtain there is a god?
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:19 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhodge83 View Post
i said that the bible says...i could careless what ever single person believed in
Can you show me in the Bible where it says the earth was created between 6-10,000 years ago?
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:19 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixCadet View Post
I just read somewhere that they invented the zipper in the late 1800's. You'd think they'd be able to figure that one out before something like the telephone.
Exactly... If human beings truly only use 5% of their brain, imagine what we're capable of if we can tap into the other 95%. So much progress has been made in the last 200 years that it's astounding if you look at how short of a period that is in our existence. As a species, we've come a long way, but there's still a long way to go. I guess the best way to sum up my whole complaint with creationism is that I think it takes a defeatist attitude to science... We don't understand it, so we'll just chalk it up to a supreme being that's above our intelligence, but I say, why give up like that and take the easy way out?
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:21 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TengoTaco View Post
Phoenix what makes you so curtain there is a god?
It's called "faith". That's what Christianity is: a faith-based religion. Each human-being has free will to believe whatever they want, and, given the resources I have infront of me (all the various religious texts), I choose to believe what the Bible says.
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:22 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixCadet View Post
Thank you for proving my point, yet again. It's called Young Earth Creationism. I think "Young Earth" Creationism is a pile of crap.
Simply put, it came from the Bible. Of course, the Bible doesn’t say explicitly anywhere, “the earth is 6,000 years old.” Good thing it doesn’t; otherwise it would be out of date the following year. But we wouldn’t expect an all-knowing God to make that kind of a mistake.

God gave us something better. In essence, He gave us a “birth certificate.” For example, using my personal birth certificate, I can calculate how old I am at any point. It is similar with the earth. Genesis 1 says that the earth was created on the first day of creation (Genesis 1:1–5). From there, we can begin calculations of the age of the earth.

Let’s do a rough calculation to show how this works. The age of the earth can be estimated by taking the first 5 days of creation (from earth’s creation to Adam), then following the genealogies from Adam to Abraham in Genesis 5 and 11, then adding in the time from Abraham to today.

Adam was created on Day 6, so there were 5 days before him. If we add up the dates from Adam to Abraham, we get about 2,000 years, using the Masoretic Hebrew text of Genesis 5 and 11.3 Whether Christian or secular, most scholars would agree that Abraham lived about 2,000 B.C. (4,000 years ago).

So a simple calculation is:

5 days
+ ~2000 years
+ ~4000 years
______________
~6000 years


its based on straight geneology...surely u cant tell me that the times/dates from the book are flawed?

also....there cant be a difference...we've been taught to that all muslims are terrorists...gotta be the same for other religions too...there cant be old and young earth creationism people
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:27 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixCadet View Post
It's called "faith". That's what Christianity is: a faith-based religion. Each human-being has free will to believe whatever they want, and, given the resources I have infront of me (all the various religious texts), I choose to believe what the Bible says.
Yes i know people can believe what they want.

Can you go any further into my question... Have you had a religious experience? Do you believe because you are afraid of the consequences?
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:31 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TengoTaco View Post
Can you go any further into my question... Have you had a religious experience? Do you believe because you are afraid of the consequences?
I have not had any striking religious experiences myself, I believe because that's what I believe. I already said this. Given all the various religious texts out there - I feel that that's the most logical, over all other religions, as well as believing in no God (athiesm).

In your opinion, does one need to have had a "religious experience" or a "miracle" to believe in God?
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:38 PM   #59
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here's a better way to look at things....

"I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant."

if ya can tell me where that came from w/o googling it, i'll....do a bananadance!!
 
Old 10-28-2008, 05:38 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixCadet View Post
I have not had any striking religious experiences myself, I believe because that's what I believe. I already said this. Given all the various religious texts out there - I feel that that's the most logical, over all other religions, as well as believing in no God (athiesm).

In your opinion, does one need to have had a "religious experience" or a "miracle" to believe in God?
Well for me it is going to take a religious experience to change my mind. I don't believe in god because i dont have any proof. It would be unfair for me to say someone had to have a religious experience because not everyone is like me.

I think its most logical to say when you die thats it and there is no god... Because i can't see proof.
 
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