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Old 04-15-2012, 08:27 PM   #61
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Looking forward for someone with experience to answer this, 3" PVC SCH X? is pretty big, I don't have the NEC with me but IIRC you can pass bigger wires than #12 on there if you would go about adding a sub-panel. Is a small panel say 8-10 slots really that much money? Not really sure if its needed or not, but for me I would just add a small sub-panel, just for having more options (maybe separating lightning from outlets or future things you might add, for example a 50A 240V circuit).

How big is the detached garage??
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:47 PM   #62
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Issue is going to be his local codes.
Electrically, in 3" conduit, he'd be "safe" running 4 circuits of 12/3 Romex, as the 3" is more than large enough to prevent excessive heating of the conductors.

But as far as I know, Romex is not allowed to be run through conduit... but I don't have the codes handy. I'm a traffic signal tech so I'm used to working with #14 individual conductors and CalTrans 5/9/28 conductor THHN cable.

Even if California and the NEC allow something, his local codes may not.
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Old 04-15-2012, 08:55 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I5runner View Post
My detached garage is about 5ft away from my home, I would like to run 4 12/3 wires inside a 3" pvc conduit under ground to avoid having to use a sub panel in the garage. Is a sub panel required or can I save a few bucks and just run the 4 wires directly into the outlets and lights. My main panel is about 6ft from the garage if this matters.
our codes are very similar but I'm not familiar with American codes, the Canadian electrical code requires the panel to be in the building being served, you cannot have circuits fed from another building. I would recommend running a 6/3 NMWU (which is suitable for burial, don't need conduit in the trench) from the house to the garage and installing a sub with a main breaker. you will also have to install a ground plate/rods for the garage.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:20 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I5runner View Post
My detached garage is about 5ft away from my home, I would like to run 4 12/3 wires inside a 3" pvc conduit under ground to avoid having to use a sub panel in the garage. Is a sub panel required or can I save a few bucks and just run the 4 wires directly into the outlets and lights. My main panel is about 6ft from the garage if this matters.
ok there are a few issues with this. first romex is not allowed in counduit unless it is sleeved for physical protection only, it is also not allowed underground, (type uf cable is and it can be direct burried). second you would would have to derate the ampacity of the wire based on the number of condutor in the conduit per NEC table 310.15 (B) (3) (a) you would be looking at a 50% derate of ampacity.

the last part is you have to have a disconnecting means as soon as the power enters the building/garage. so you have have to have 4 double pole disconnects or 8 single pole disconnect they way you are talking about doing this. 8 would be a code violation also, so the bottom line is you really should use a sub panel. they are cheap and i would recommed that is what you use. then use the 3" conduit for you feeder wires to the sub panel. from there you can add all the circuits you want.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:31 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskquatch11 View Post
our codes are very similar but I'm not familiar with American codes, the Canadian electrical code requires the panel to be in the building being served, you cannot have circuits fed from another building. I would recommend running a 6/3 NMWU (which is suitable for burial, don't need conduit in the trench) from the house to the garage and installing a sub with a main breaker. you will also have to install a ground plate/rods for the garage.
pretty much what he said.
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:51 PM   #66
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Yeah I wanted to avoid installing a sub panel mainly due to having to install new ground rods. I didn't know your not allowed to run romex inside conduit. Thanks for the advice. Looks like I'll have to cough up some more change and do this the right way. How deep will i have to bury the wire. It's a two car garage and I will have to pour concrete over the berried wire.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:33 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I5runner View Post
Yeah I wanted to avoid installing a sub panel mainly due to having to install new ground rods. I didn't know your not allowed to run romex inside conduit. Thanks for the advice. Looks like I'll have to cough up some more change and do this the right way. How deep will i have to bury the wire. It's a two car garage and I will have to pour concrete over the berried wire.
2' 6" is the minimum cover requirement for that particular situation, normally 3' but because it will be under concrete the depth can be reduced by 6". again, our codes are very similar but I can only reference the CEC.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:08 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alberta_taco View Post
Your better to run a nmdwu (direct burrial) or a teck90 than run the PVC. I would sleeve the nmdwu with PVC as it comes out of the ground for mechanical protection. Romex well deteriorate if buried in a pipe because it's wet. But I also can only speak via CEC. The American codes are a bit different. For my place we ran a 3C 6awg AL teck. The cable was Mabey 125 bucks for the whole run and a sub panel is 30 bucks. You gotta think about resale as well - many people like having a panel in the garage.
teck90 under concrete is a bit overkill IMO, sleeving the cable where it comes out of the ground is also required by code.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:45 PM   #69
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I go ahead and dig a 2 1/2 ft deep trench. I'll only have to dig about 4ft to 5ft wide. I'm thinking a 60Amp sub panel will be more then enough. All the receptacles will be 120v and im thinking about using 4 20Amp breakers. From the main panel to the sub panel, I estimate about no more then 10 ft. I know now that I need an underground feed wire but what gauge exactly should I use? Also correct me if I'm wrong but I'll also need to run 2 ground rods 6 or 8 feet apart? I live in southern CA, LA county to be exact.
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:16 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I5runner View Post
I go ahead and dig a 2 1/2 ft deep trench. I'll only have to dig about 4ft to 5ft wide. I'm thinking a 60Amp sub panel will be more then enough. All the receptacles will be 120v and im thinking about using 4 20Amp breakers. From the main panel to the sub panel, I estimate about no more then 10 ft. I know now that I need an underground feed wire but what gauge exactly should I use? Also correct me if I'm wrong but I'll also need to run 2 ground rods 6 or 8 feet apart? I live in southern CA, LA county to be exact.
use a 6 gauge 3 conductor NMWU. remember to allow for the depth of the trench and allow ~2ft at each end for terminations when figuring out the length of the feeder. yes, you need 2 ground rods 10ft apart or you could use 1 ground plate buried 2ft deep. you might have to contact a local electrical contractor or electrical inspector to determine whether or not your sub panel requires a main breaker.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:38 PM   #71
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Alright, thanks for the help. I'm sure I'll be back when I actually start the job. Hope this thread stays alive.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:37 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskquatch11 View Post
use a 6 gauge 3 conductor NMWU. remember to allow for the depth of the trench and allow ~2ft at each end for terminations when figuring out the length of the feeder. yes, you need 2 ground rods 10ft apart or you could use 1 ground plate buried 2ft deep. you might have to contact a local electrical contractor or electrical inspector to determine whether or not your sub panel requires a main breaker.
6 Gage 3 conductor is right. Here in the states we use uf not nmwu, your trench only has to be 24" or maybe 18 it depends on what you use that area for. And the ground rods only need to be 6 feet apart but I unusual drive the first one then lay the other one down so it touches the first one then drive it right where the other end is so that would make them 8' apart. Yes you will have to have a main breaker and 60 amps is the minimum you run by code if you have more then 2 circuits.
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Old 07-22-2012, 05:44 AM   #73
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Planning on putting an heater in my recently insulated crawl space. The wires down there now the circuits are full.My hot water tank is down there also. Can I run anything else off the hot water tank circuit? Getting a new wire down there will be a major pain in my ass.
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Old 07-22-2012, 06:28 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OZ-T View Post
What causes a grounding loop in a residential wiring system ?

When my fridge turns on I can hear a cyclic hum in my subwoofer .

They are on seperate dedicated circuits , and on different phases .

The only thing they have in common is they are both in my generator sub panel .
If you have a electronic store near by stop in and get some clip on ferrite chocks. I would guess it's more the sub woofer then the fridge they are very sensitive to electrical noise take 2 or 3 wraps of the speaker wire through the choke as close the the sub as you can. You may have to try the choke in different spots to cure it if the sub is powered from the wall socket you might try the choke on the power cord.
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:26 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by newfie8 View Post
Planning on putting an heater in my recently insulated crawl space. The wires down there now the circuits are full.My hot water tank is down there also. Can I run anything else off the hot water tank circuit? Getting a new wire down there will be a major pain in my ass.
Journeyman Electrician here, currently licensed in Michigan and Florida. Both your Electric Water Heater and desired Heater have heating elements... real electricity hogs. I'm guessing 30 amp 240 volt on the water heater, and after a shower or a hot clothes washer cycle, that thing will be using most of the available amperage. On a cold day, same will happen with the heater. To avoid what I imagine would be constant tripping of the breaker, bite the bullet and run a new circuit down there.
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:38 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfie8 View Post
Planning on putting an heater in my recently insulated crawl space. The wires down there now the circuits are full.My hot water tank is down there also. Can I run anything else off the hot water tank circuit? Getting a new wire down there will be a major pain in my ass.
How many amps is the breaker for the hot water heater?
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:50 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfie8 View Post
Planning on putting an heater in my recently insulated crawl space. The wires down there now the circuits are full.My hot water tank is down there also. Can I run anything else off the hot water tank circuit? Getting a new wire down there will be a major pain in my ass.
rule 26-750(4) of the CEC
Every electric storage-tank water heater shall be supplied from a branch circuit used solely for the heater.

you can not put a heater (or anything else) on the same circuit as your hot water tank. if the heater you're installing is rated at more than 1500W, that heater needs to on its own circuit as well, rule 26-746(1).
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:17 AM   #78
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Why do some of my circuit breakers have bar thingy's on them to keep them from popping? Water heater being one.
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:26 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by ImpulseRed008 View Post
Why do some of my circuit breakers have bar thingy's on them to keep them from popping? Water heater being one.
I believe what you're referring to is this\/\/\/


the bar is there to interlock the two breaker handles together when used as a 2 pole breaker.
you could use the same breaker for 2 single pole circuits by removing the bar.
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:29 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskquatch11 View Post
I believe what you're referring to is this\/\/\/


the bar is there to interlock the two breaker handles together when used as a 2 pole breaker.
you could use the same breaker for 2 single pole circuits by removing the bar.


See the wire bar.... it keeps the breaker from flipping If I want to turn the water heater off, I have to swing the thing out of the way
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