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Old 07-20-2012, 05:36 AM   #21
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Nice sportster. Those were innocent humans, not sheep. Cop I assume by your signature?
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:42 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
It only would have taken 1 person to resolve this. In a theater full of 100+ people and not one trys to resolve the situation. Theres three types of people in this world: sheep, wolves and shepards. Everyone in this case was a sheep that got taken down by one wolf. WTF...........

And the guy that would only take a clear shot on a perfect day with the right temperature and what ever else, I understand your point but a response is better than none at all. A poor shooter that couldn't hit anything may have caused this subject to turn and run. To each their own but I'm a Sheapard. No situation will ever be as you picture it. Deal with it or stay a sheep.
Being in law enforcement based on your profile you would have extensive training for situations similar to this. Even with tear gas and a sold out movie theater your training tells you to take the shot and attempt to resolve the situation? I am just wanting to get a clear understanding of your thoughts. I agree it just takes one to quickly resolve the situation but what doesn't appear logical to me is shooting into a crowd. Help me understand.
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Originally Posted by BrokenTusk View Post
I'll say it: There should've been someone with CCW to fire back, if for no other reason then to concentrate the shooters attention on a single person vs. the crowd. Maybe cause the shooter himself to dodge for cover. All buying precious seconds for people to escape and preserving life.

Even in your worst case senario Jasmine, if the CCW carrier had hit someone innocent.. maybe his actions still might've saved a dozen others.
CCW carrier while having additional training does not have on going training and is no where near prepared to shoot into a packed theater with tear gas and mass chaos. You would be alright with injuring or possibly killing others while you shoot at someone with body armor on? Let's also remember that the gunman conducted all of this in less then a minute so chances are the death toll may not have been affected at all or could have gone up.
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Originally Posted by BrokenTusk View Post
WHY WAS A 3 MONTH OLD AT A MOVIE THEATRE?!?
Exactly. WTF? Take this away from the present situation why would you subject such a young life to that much noise in the middle of the night?
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Originally Posted by BrokenTusk View Post
It really is hard to say.. I do see your point of view. I need to reflect on this.
I as well see your point so it is hard to say.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:48 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by CoTacoTRD View Post
Being in law enforcement based on your profile you would have extensive training for situations similar to this. Even with tear gas and a sold out movie theater your training tells you to take the shot and attempt to resolve the situation? I am just wanting to get a clear understanding of your thoughts. I agree it just takes one to quickly resolve the situation but what doesn't appear logical to me is shooting into a crowd. Help me understand.

CCW carrier while having additional training does not have on going training and is no where near prepared to shoot into a packed theater with tear gas and mass chaos. You would be alright with injuring or possibly killing others while you shoot at someone with body armor on? Let's also remember that the gunman conducted all of this in less then a minute so chances are the death toll may not have been affected at all or could have gone up.

Exactly. WTF? Take this away from the present situation why would you subject such a young life to that much noise in the middle of the night?

I as well see your point so it is hard to say.
It would be interesting to note the layout of the theatre. Most are raised up per seat row, with the only exits being at the front which is where the shooter would've entered effectively sealing the exits. It read 14+ as Dead, with 50 others injured & wounded. If that was the case then you'd have almost certainly hit an innocent firing back as they would've all had to run past the shooter.

Maybe I'm just a responsible parent, I would've just waited to watch the movie in a week or two on satillite, maybe pirate it if I was that ancy to watch it, rather then bring a baby to a violent movie at midnight. Some people shouldn't have kids..
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:51 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuxdiesel View Post
Nice sportster. Those were innocent humans, not sheep. Cop I assume by your signature?
You would be correct. Everyone can give opinions for days. Simple fact is actions speak louder than words. This case being an "Active Shooter" scenario, statistics show that once engaged the shooter will almost always kill themself. We know this guy did not do that even after being confronted by police(according to the media). However, If one person was to engage this suspect the suspect would have to react and hopefully limit the number of additional victims. If this had happen maybe there would have been 5 dead and 20 wounded, maybe not. I don't advocate anyone carrying any weapon shooting recklessly into a crowd. However, at the moment this suspect began his attack it became a war and unfortunately wars are not friendly and unfortunate things sometimes happen. Ultimately if someone has the ability to act and does nothing they have to live with themselves. Likewise if someone has the ability to act and does something that injures inocents they still have to live with themself. Everyone has to make the decision for him/herself. But don't condem others for acting when no one else would even if something unfortunate happens. I am a firm beliver in people being like sheep 80%, wolves 10% or shepards 10%. Once again these are MY opinions.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:53 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasmine View Post
I guess we are all trying to work the scenarios with our opinions. I don't think this guy, who came prepared with body armor and multile weapons, was gonna turn and leave over one person shooting their one gun. And would it be worth it, if you shot at this guy and hit other people, and it stopped nothing? You would still be ok with possibly killing someone else?

And to call everyone a sheep because running was the only way to save themselves is insensitive.

Do you remember 09/11
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:57 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
Do you remember 09/11
WTF does this have to do with 9/11??
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:57 AM   #27
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I have always felt VERY vulnerable in a movie theater. I can tell you that I always CCW and carry a very bright, very small flashlight (Surefire E1B)when I'm watching a movie.

That being said, if someone busted through a door in a dark theater in a riot helmet and body armor, tossing smoke/gas bombs and possibly shrapnel bombs, I would not expect to be able to wade through a panicked sea of 300 people toward an active shooter to get a shot.

I'm surprised he didn't take his own life - most of the idiots like this don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:00 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Pugga View Post
WTF does this have to do with 9/11??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdWBjqUGgvU
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:00 AM   #29
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Prayers go to the victims. I hope they put those people who shot in their place

SIX FEET UNDER
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:01 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Polymerhead View Post
I'm surprised he didn't take his own life - most of the idiots like this don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions.
Yup, man's got a story to tell. Now it's just a waiting game till he does.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:04 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoTacoTRD View Post
Being in law enforcement based on your profile you would have extensive training for situations similar to this. Even with tear gas and a sold out movie theater your training tells you to take the shot and attempt to resolve the situation? I am just wanting to get a clear understanding of your thoughts. I agree it just takes one to quickly resolve the situation but what doesn't appear logical to me is shooting into a crowd. Help me understand.

CCW carrier while having additional training does not have on going training and is no where near prepared to shoot into a packed theater with tear gas and mass chaos. You would be alright with injuring or possibly killing others while you shoot at someone with body armor on? Let's also remember that the gunman conducted all of this in less then a minute so chances are the death toll may not have been affected at all or could have gone up.

Exactly. WTF? Take this away from the present situation why would you subject such a young life to that much noise in the middle of the night?

I as well see your point so it is hard to say.
Yes my training teaches me to ELIMINATE THE THREAT at all cost. If inocents are injured it is very unfortunate but the inocents injured by somebody reacting to the threat are likely to be far fewer than no body reacting at all. Most weapons carriers can draw a weapon in under 2 seconds and put accurate rounds on target. Add stress and the dynamic environment and you could proably double this reaction time in most cases to 4 seconds. For me there is nothing to think about, ASS HOLE KILLING PEOPLE, I KILL ASS HOLE.

Also the majority of CCW holders also don't have any formal training or experience outside of a couple hour class that is usually just to familiarize the students with the states laws and gun safety. Once again we have to live with our decision, turn and run or stay and fight.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:04 AM   #32
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I work security at a movie theater part time. Its in a nice part of town attached to a mall. You would never expect problems, but you just never know. Tonight during the Dark Knight premier, we had 21 armed guards, all wearing body armor, and carrying their sidearm, mags, OC, baton, Taser, cuffs, etc. People freak out when they see us and always ask "why do you need armed security at a movie theater, are we in danger??" They don't realize that we are not there to catch people movie hopping and sneaking in, we are there for situations like this because you just never know.

As far as people saying they would shoot the guy if they were there with their ccw... its highly doubtful. We had 12,000 guests tonight.... yes 12 thousand. I realize most theaters came nowhere close to that, but considering we had 21 trained (most off duty/ex Leo) officers with firearms, it still would have been extremely difficult for us to have stopped him before that happened. First off, its pitch black I'm the theater, second, the room was full of gas. There is no way anyone would have been able get a clear shot, especially a ccw carrier who has nothing to protect him and everything to lose. 1 wrong shot in the dark and you can get charged with murder if you miss. Its not worth it to try an be the hero. I'm not saying its bad either, I fully support open and concealed carry by everyone and would commend anyone who helped. But in can tell you that if I ran into an auditorium in an active shooter call and saw a man with a gun in plain clothes, he's getting shot. How would I know that he is a citizen with ccw or of duty Leo. My point is there are a tom of factors that prevent a ccw carrier from being a hero in this situation. As great as it would be, its highly doubtful. And would be a very poor decision and possibly a fatal one for a ccw to draw in that situation.

Also keep in mind that even if that theater had security like where I was tonight, our job is to protect the assets of our employer and to preserve life. We would not run into the theater weapons drawn. Imagine the chaos that already existed.

My prayers go out to the families who lost a loved one tonight.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:07 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugga View Post
WTF does this have to do with 9/11??
People acted and stoped a big airplane from killing numerous other people.

In this case people maybe could have acted and stopped some of the damages. 100+ to 1, think about it.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:07 AM   #34
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everyone who has stated why not just take him out if carrying a CCW are ignorant idiots not clearly thinking about what the actual situation may have been. everyone wants to be a cowboy and a hero. and unless you are proficient and trained in firearms and tactical situations, you will have very little chance in disabling the shooter. you would have to be up close and personal to take out the shooter. since he was allegedly wearing body armor to include a riot helmet. a handgun alone will have no affect against body armor, only a high powered rifle will. not to mention even trying to identify the shooter in the first place would be near impossible. for example, shooting happened in a dark movie theater. shooter was alledgelly wearing a gas mask and deploying several canisters of tear gas, deployed tear gas equals smoke clouds...and unless you just happened to be wearing your gas mask you would be impaired. add in the fire sprinklers, the hundreds of panicked victims running probably in every direction to get a safe place. and i doubt very much the shooter was stationary in a fixed location, good luck in trying to hit a moving target in the best conditions..
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:09 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
You would be correct. Everyone can give opinions for days. Simple fact is actions speak louder than words. This case being an "Active Shooter" scenario, statistics show that once engaged the shooter will almost always kill themself. We know this guy did not do that even after being confronted by police(according to the media). However, If one person was to engage this suspect the suspect would have to react and hopefully limit the number of additional victims. If this had happen maybe there would have been 5 dead and 20 wounded, maybe not. I don't advocate anyone carrying any weapon shooting recklessly into a crowd. However, at the moment this suspect began his attack it became a war and unfortunately wars are not friendly and unfortunate things sometimes happen. Ultimately if someone has the ability to act and does nothing they have to live with themselves. Likewise if someone has the ability to act and does something that injures inocents they still have to live with themself. Everyone has to make the decision for him/herself. But don't condem others for acting when no one else would even if something unfortunate happens. I am a firm beliver in people being like sheep 80%, wolves 10% or shepards 10%. Once again these are MY opinions.
The "active shooter" scenario - is this something taught to just Law enforcement through your training. Do they teach it to CCW carriers? The concern would be the average person not knowing this situation or this scenario and trying to pop of rounds into the crowd bouncing it off of his armor and killing others.

Also they just confirmed that he went in, set off the smoke bomb, shot up the theater and left. When he walked out of the front of the theater and was confronted by police he surrendered and offered no resistance. So the suicide part of this scenario is not working.

Everyone will approach the situation differently but I am still having trouble grasping that opening fire in a crowded theater to distract the shooter is the right thing to do if I am in that situation.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:12 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasmine View Post
I get the point your making.. Yeah an enclosed space where the chances of catching the suspect is high is not the same as a movie theater where the suspect had many exits, and an upper hand (multiple weapons, tear gas, gas mask, body armor). That is a big reach.

Maybe but it would have caused the suspect to react. If it resulted in him finding an exit that would have been better than continued shooting. He would get some but not all.

This is a pointless argument that will never come to a unanimous aggreement.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:15 AM   #37
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:18 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
Maybe but it would have caused the suspect to react. If it resulted in him finding an exit that would have been better than continued shooting. He would get some but not all.

This is a pointless argument that will never come to a unanimous aggreement.
That too is a point and yes we will have to agree to disagree.

Good news the confirmed death count dropped to 12. Still 40+ injured. They are trying to search his apartment now with fears that it is full of explosives. It will be interesting to see if he a story to tell as to why he decided to do this.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:24 AM   #39
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:28 AM   #40
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elmo7 is one of the sharper tools in the shedelmo7 is one of the sharper tools in the shedelmo7 is one of the sharper tools in the shedelmo7 is one of the sharper tools in the shedelmo7 is one of the sharper tools in the shedelmo7 is one of the sharper tools in the shedelmo7 is one of the sharper tools in the shedelmo7 is one of the sharper tools in the shedelmo7 is one of the sharper tools in the shedelmo7 is one of the sharper tools in the shedelmo7 is one of the sharper tools in the shed
Joined: Aug 2011, #61553
Location: SC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario Runner View Post
No babysitter I guess.
Then you stay home.

As for the shooting, that's sick. Crazy people are everywhere. Some are just insane.
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