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Old 07-20-2012, 05:07 AM   #41
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everyone who has stated why not just take him out if carrying a CCW are ignorant idiots not clearly thinking about what the actual situation may have been. everyone wants to be a cowboy and a hero. and unless you are proficient and trained in firearms and tactical situations, you will have very little chance in disabling the shooter. you would have to be up close and personal to take out the shooter. since he was allegedly wearing body armor to include a riot helmet. a handgun alone will have no affect against body armor, only a high powered rifle will. not to mention even trying to identify the shooter in the first place would be near impossible. for example, shooting happened in a dark movie theater. shooter was alledgelly wearing a gas mask and deploying several canisters of tear gas, deployed tear gas equals smoke clouds...and unless you just happened to be wearing your gas mask you would be impaired. add in the fire sprinklers, the hundreds of panicked victims running probably in every direction to get a safe place. and i doubt very much the shooter was stationary in a fixed location, good luck in trying to hit a moving target in the best conditions..
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:09 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
You would be correct. Everyone can give opinions for days. Simple fact is actions speak louder than words. This case being an "Active Shooter" scenario, statistics show that once engaged the shooter will almost always kill themself. We know this guy did not do that even after being confronted by police(according to the media). However, If one person was to engage this suspect the suspect would have to react and hopefully limit the number of additional victims. If this had happen maybe there would have been 5 dead and 20 wounded, maybe not. I don't advocate anyone carrying any weapon shooting recklessly into a crowd. However, at the moment this suspect began his attack it became a war and unfortunately wars are not friendly and unfortunate things sometimes happen. Ultimately if someone has the ability to act and does nothing they have to live with themselves. Likewise if someone has the ability to act and does something that injures inocents they still have to live with themself. Everyone has to make the decision for him/herself. But don't condem others for acting when no one else would even if something unfortunate happens. I am a firm beliver in people being like sheep 80%, wolves 10% or shepards 10%. Once again these are MY opinions.
The "active shooter" scenario - is this something taught to just Law enforcement through your training. Do they teach it to CCW carriers? The concern would be the average person not knowing this situation or this scenario and trying to pop of rounds into the crowd bouncing it off of his armor and killing others.

Also they just confirmed that he went in, set off the smoke bomb, shot up the theater and left. When he walked out of the front of the theater and was confronted by police he surrendered and offered no resistance. So the suicide part of this scenario is not working.

Everyone will approach the situation differently but I am still having trouble grasping that opening fire in a crowded theater to distract the shooter is the right thing to do if I am in that situation.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:12 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Jasmine View Post
I get the point your making.. Yeah an enclosed space where the chances of catching the suspect is high is not the same as a movie theater where the suspect had many exits, and an upper hand (multiple weapons, tear gas, gas mask, body armor). That is a big reach.

Maybe but it would have caused the suspect to react. If it resulted in him finding an exit that would have been better than continued shooting. He would get some but not all.

This is a pointless argument that will never come to a unanimous aggreement.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:15 AM   #44
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Unreal.....prayers for the lost and wounded>>>>>
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:18 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
Maybe but it would have caused the suspect to react. If it resulted in him finding an exit that would have been better than continued shooting. He would get some but not all.

This is a pointless argument that will never come to a unanimous aggreement.
That too is a point and yes we will have to agree to disagree.

Good news the confirmed death count dropped to 12. Still 40+ injured. They are trying to search his apartment now with fears that it is full of explosives. It will be interesting to see if he a story to tell as to why he decided to do this.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:24 AM   #46
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:28 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Lucario Runner View Post
No babysitter I guess.
Then you stay home.

As for the shooting, that's sick. Crazy people are everywhere. Some are just insane.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:28 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by elmo7 View Post
Then you stay home.

As for the shooting, that's sick. Crazy people are everywhere. Some are just insane.
Not all insane are violent.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:30 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyProof View Post
everyone who has stated why not just take him out if carrying a CCW are ignorant idiots not clearly thinking about what the actual situation may have been. everyone wants to be a cowboy and a hero. and unless you are proficient and trained in firearms and tactical situations, you will have very little chance in disabling the shooter. you would have to be up close and personal to take out the shooter. since he was allegedly wearing body armor to include a riot helmet. a handgun alone will have no affect against body armor, only a high powered rifle will. not to mention even trying to identify the shooter in the first place would be near impossible. for example, shooting happened in a dark movie theater. shooter was alledgelly wearing a gas mask and deploying several canisters of tear gas, deployed tear gas equals smoke clouds...and unless you just happened to be wearing your gas mask you would be impaired. add in the fire sprinklers, the hundreds of panicked victims running probably in every direction to get a safe place. and i doubt very much the shooter was stationary in a fixed location, good luck in trying to hit a moving target in the best conditions..
I agree with everything except people being idiots for trying to act. This a very dificult situation for someone with training let alone someone without training or limited training. However, doing nothing accomplishes nothing and doing something may actually accomplish something. If someone has the courage go for it. But understand what risks are being taken. As another post mentioned when Law enforcement responds they are there to stop the threat and someone who is in plain cloths may be precieved as the threat.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:30 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
Yes my training teaches me to ELIMINATE THE THREAT at all cost. If inocents are injured it is very unfortunate but the inocents injured by somebody reacting to the threat are likely to be far fewer than no body reacting at all. Most weapons carriers can draw a weapon in under 2 seconds and put accurate rounds on target. Add stress and the dynamic environment and you could proably double this reaction time in most cases to 4 seconds. For me there is nothing to think about, ASS HOLE KILLING PEOPLE, I KILL ASS HOLE.

Also the majority of CCW holders also don't have any formal training or experience outside of a couple hour class that is usually just to familiarize the students with the states laws and gun safety. Once again we have to live with our decision, turn and run or stay and fight.
Eliminate the threat AT ALL COST?!?!?! I will never watch a movie with you my friend. The only training that teaches that is survivalist training.
BTW I'm not a sheep, wolf or shepherd.

If I was there and armed, I would have been more concered with the safety of my wife - who I would have been there with.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:32 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenobe View Post
Eliminate the threat AT ALL COST?!?!?! I will never watch a movie with you my friend. The only training that teaches that is survivalist training.
BTW I'm not a sheep, wolf or shepherd.


+1 for you
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:36 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
I agree with everything except people being idiots for trying to act. This a very dificult situation for someone with training let alone someone without training or limited training. However, doing nothing accomplishes nothing and doing something may actually accomplish something. If someone has the courage go for it. But understand what risks are being taken. As another post mentioned when Law enforcement responds they are there to stop the threat and someone who is in plain cloths may be precieved as the threat.
you obviously don't have the training- you are an idiot
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:37 AM   #53
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Another tragedy for my state. A buddy was there with his son (and concerned only for his son, not taking out the bad guy). They got out safe.

Of course incidents like this only ignite both sides of the gun debate - the ones who question how easily the weapons were acquired and the others who think they're a hitman like the Tom Cruise character.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:39 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenobe View Post
Another tragedy for my state. A buddy was there with his son (and concerned only for his son, not taking out the bad guy). They got out safe.

Of course incidents like this only ignite both sides of the gun debate - the ones who question how easily the weapons were acquired and the others who think they're a hitman like the Tom Cruise character.
How easily they get guns should never be the issue, give most people in the world an assault rifle and they aren't going to start murdering folk. This is a "someone seriously fucked up parenting" sort of issue.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:40 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyProof View Post
you obviously don't have the training- you are an idiot
You know nothing of me and I know nothing of you so for you to feel that your opinion is the only valid one seems to make you the idiot.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:41 AM   #56
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:42 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
You know nothing of me and I know nothing of you so for you to feel that your opinion is the only valid one seems to make you the idiot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyProof View Post
There is only one way this can be settled.

Pokemon card duel to the death.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:43 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
People acted and stoped a big airplane from killing numerous other people.

In this case people maybe could have acted and stopped some of the damages. 100+ to 1, think about it.
Yeah, think about it... this guy came in with tear gas, a gas mask, multiple weapons and the element of surprise. I'd say he clearly had the upper hand. The people on the Flight 93 had some time to coordinate their attack to successfully take over the plane, these people did not have the luxury of time.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:46 AM   #59
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:47 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
You know nothing of me and I know nothing of you so for you to feel that your opinion is the only valid one seems to make you the idiot.
So if you had a little child in a place that got shot up, you would be ok with someone pulling a gun and trying to hit the suspect and accidentally killing your child? Of course as a parent you would be devastated, but you would back up that person's decision? A casualty of "war"? Like you said, we know nothing about you and I want to know how your mind works.
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