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Old 07-20-2012, 06:28 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by elmo7 View Post
Then you stay home.

As for the shooting, that's sick. Crazy people are everywhere. Some are just insane.
Not all insane are violent.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:30 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by MonkeyProof View Post
everyone who has stated why not just take him out if carrying a CCW are ignorant idiots not clearly thinking about what the actual situation may have been. everyone wants to be a cowboy and a hero. and unless you are proficient and trained in firearms and tactical situations, you will have very little chance in disabling the shooter. you would have to be up close and personal to take out the shooter. since he was allegedly wearing body armor to include a riot helmet. a handgun alone will have no affect against body armor, only a high powered rifle will. not to mention even trying to identify the shooter in the first place would be near impossible. for example, shooting happened in a dark movie theater. shooter was alledgelly wearing a gas mask and deploying several canisters of tear gas, deployed tear gas equals smoke clouds...and unless you just happened to be wearing your gas mask you would be impaired. add in the fire sprinklers, the hundreds of panicked victims running probably in every direction to get a safe place. and i doubt very much the shooter was stationary in a fixed location, good luck in trying to hit a moving target in the best conditions..
I agree with everything except people being idiots for trying to act. This a very dificult situation for someone with training let alone someone without training or limited training. However, doing nothing accomplishes nothing and doing something may actually accomplish something. If someone has the courage go for it. But understand what risks are being taken. As another post mentioned when Law enforcement responds they are there to stop the threat and someone who is in plain cloths may be precieved as the threat.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:30 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
Yes my training teaches me to ELIMINATE THE THREAT at all cost. If inocents are injured it is very unfortunate but the inocents injured by somebody reacting to the threat are likely to be far fewer than no body reacting at all. Most weapons carriers can draw a weapon in under 2 seconds and put accurate rounds on target. Add stress and the dynamic environment and you could proably double this reaction time in most cases to 4 seconds. For me there is nothing to think about, ASS HOLE KILLING PEOPLE, I KILL ASS HOLE.

Also the majority of CCW holders also don't have any formal training or experience outside of a couple hour class that is usually just to familiarize the students with the states laws and gun safety. Once again we have to live with our decision, turn and run or stay and fight.
Eliminate the threat AT ALL COST?!?!?! I will never watch a movie with you my friend. The only training that teaches that is survivalist training.
BTW I'm not a sheep, wolf or shepherd.

If I was there and armed, I would have been more concered with the safety of my wife - who I would have been there with.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:32 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenobe View Post
Eliminate the threat AT ALL COST?!?!?! I will never watch a movie with you my friend. The only training that teaches that is survivalist training.
BTW I'm not a sheep, wolf or shepherd.


+1 for you
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:36 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
I agree with everything except people being idiots for trying to act. This a very dificult situation for someone with training let alone someone without training or limited training. However, doing nothing accomplishes nothing and doing something may actually accomplish something. If someone has the courage go for it. But understand what risks are being taken. As another post mentioned when Law enforcement responds they are there to stop the threat and someone who is in plain cloths may be precieved as the threat.
you obviously don't have the training- you are an idiot
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:37 AM   #46
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Another tragedy for my state. A buddy was there with his son (and concerned only for his son, not taking out the bad guy). They got out safe.

Of course incidents like this only ignite both sides of the gun debate - the ones who question how easily the weapons were acquired and the others who think they're a hitman like the Tom Cruise character.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:39 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenobe View Post
Another tragedy for my state. A buddy was there with his son (and concerned only for his son, not taking out the bad guy). They got out safe.

Of course incidents like this only ignite both sides of the gun debate - the ones who question how easily the weapons were acquired and the others who think they're a hitman like the Tom Cruise character.
How easily they get guns should never be the issue, give most people in the world an assault rifle and they aren't going to start murdering folk. This is a "someone seriously fucked up parenting" sort of issue.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:40 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by MonkeyProof View Post
you obviously don't have the training- you are an idiot
You know nothing of me and I know nothing of you so for you to feel that your opinion is the only valid one seems to make you the idiot.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:41 AM   #49
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:42 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
You know nothing of me and I know nothing of you so for you to feel that your opinion is the only valid one seems to make you the idiot.
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Originally Posted by MonkeyProof View Post
There is only one way this can be settled.

Pokemon card duel to the death.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:43 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
People acted and stoped a big airplane from killing numerous other people.

In this case people maybe could have acted and stopped some of the damages. 100+ to 1, think about it.
Yeah, think about it... this guy came in with tear gas, a gas mask, multiple weapons and the element of surprise. I'd say he clearly had the upper hand. The people on the Flight 93 had some time to coordinate their attack to successfully take over the plane, these people did not have the luxury of time.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:46 AM   #52
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+1 for the pokemon cards and I'm out.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:48 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugga View Post
Yeah, think about it... this guy came in with tear gas, a gas mask, multiple weapons and the element of surprise. I'd say he clearly had the upper hand. The people on the Flight 93 had some time to coordinate their attack to successfully take over the plane, these people did not have the luxury of time.

not to mention, the movie goers/victems all had their backs to the shooter..i wonder how long as in seconds did it take for the crowd to realize what was going on. imagine a sold out theater in a panic situation as that would have been in that instance?

EDIT: movies goers did not have their backs to the shooter.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:57 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
Yes my training teaches me to ELIMINATE THE THREAT at all cost. If inocents are injured it is very unfortunate but the inocents injured by somebody reacting to the threat are likely to be far fewer than no body reacting at all. Most weapons carriers can draw a weapon in under 2 seconds and put accurate rounds on target. Add stress and the dynamic environment and you could proably double this reaction time in most cases to 4 seconds. For me there is nothing to think about, ASS HOLE KILLING PEOPLE, I KILL ASS HOLE.

Also the majority of CCW holders also don't have any formal training or experience outside of a couple hour class that is usually just to familiarize the students with the states laws and gun safety. Once again we have to live with our decision, turn and run or stay and fight.
I'll add to this with stating my state doesn't not require any class or training for a CCW. We are also an open carry state.

I'll also add that if you have not been exposed to tear gas, even in small doses, it is a very shocking thing. It doesn't matter how many times you are told that it will not harm you, that it is not poisonous, that you will survive; you think you are going to die. There are few people in this world who could actively and effectively take out an assailant while under the full effects of tear gas. The people with the best chances are LEO's and active/former military personnel (especially grunts). Even then I would not expect them to be able neutralize the threat.


But hey, we are all just a bunch of armchair quarterbacks here anyway.
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:00 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by MonkeyProof View Post
not to mention, the movie goers/victems all had their backs to the shooter..i wonder how long as in seconds did it take for the crowd to realize what was going on. imagine a sold out theater in a panic situation as that would have been in that instance?
He was in front of the screen on the right side.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...-movie-theater

Quote:
Chayyiel Jackson of Aurora told Morning Edition that he was up front, on the left side of the theater, when the gunman came in from an exit door on the right side. The man, clad all in black, threw some sort of gas canister and then began firing.
You can also listen to his story on that link
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:00 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98tacoma27 View Post
I'll add to this with stating my state doesn't not require any class or training for a CCW. We are also an open carry state.

I'll also add that if you have not been exposed to tear gas, even in small doses, it is a very shocking thing. It doesn't matter how many times you are told that it will not harm you, that it is not poisonous, that you will survive; you think you are going to die. There are few people in this world who could actively and effectively take out an assailant while under the full effects of tear gas. The people with the best chances are LEO's and active/former military personnel (especially grunts). Even then I would not expect them to be able neutralize the threat.


But hey, we are all just a bunch of armchair quarterbacks here anyway.
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:01 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98tacoma27 View Post
He was in front of the screen on the right side.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...-movie-theater



You can also listen to his story on that link
thanks..
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:07 AM   #58
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My thoughts are with those injured this atrocity and condolences to those who have suffered a loss because of the actions of one insane person. To those who feel a person with a CCW, Military, Law Enforcement person could have stopped this you may wish to rethink that for the following reasons:
1) CCW holders do not go through the same training as military and Law Enforcement IE high stress multiple confusion enhancing scenarios using loud noises, flashing lights, bright lights, smoke / gas, multiple non combatants around the shooter. Yes they go through similar shoot don’t shoot scenarios but nothing like military / law enforcement.
2) CCW, Military and Law enforcement shoot at paper which does not shoot back and the risk of being shot is negligible. Many highly trained people (Myself Included) freeze for a few milliseconds or totally the first time in a situation when someone is shooting at you this is quite common among all three of the above stated classes of people.
3) CCW, Military and Law enforcement are all going to be held accountable for their actions and in the case of off duty law enforcement inaction. Shooting in a crowded theater with terrified people running around if they hit a non combatant all will be sued. You can argue they may have hit the shooter or scared him off or into committing suicide but that will not prevent the loved ones of the person you hit and kill accidentally from suing and winning civilly as for criminal charges that would depend on the local laws unknown by me so I cannot speak to them.
4) We are all operating from news reports which if you’re older then the age of reason your well aware are always skewed, rushed and not always factual. From what I have cobbled together but cannot testify to the veracity of the statements is :
· The shooter started during a shooting scene in the movie if true adds to the confusion in identifying the threat.
· The shooter was wearing all black and something that was or appeared to be tactical gear adds to confusion identifying an active shooter or Law Enforcement person.
· The shooter came into the front part of the theater by the screen adds confusion to identifying a target looking into to a bright screen.
· The shooter reportedly fired his first shots into the air adds to identifying a threat “is it part of the show or not?” and yes dumber things have been done at movie openings.
· The shooter used 2 tear gas grenades or a smoker adds to confusion in identifying a target.
· The theater was dark and until an alarm was either triggered or pulled causing the lights to come on full in a smoke filled room adds to identifying a target. 2 tear gas grenades or smokers were used in a standard theater on a guess (to many types to know without model and manufacturer) it would be filled in under 30 seconds.


To those who feel a parent taking a child to see a late night movie as long as the child can handle the movie or is going to sleep through it what does it matter to you? What you do with your own children is what you would do. Casting aspersions upon them and their decisions is a useless exercise you’re not wearing their shoes. If you’re a parent you more than likely have had a baby sitter bail last minute, can’t afford babysitting and a movie these are tough times etc. I have taken both my daughters to late night showings for movies they wanted to see usually on a Friday night but I have done opening nights it’s my choice as a parent to do so. I also accept any and all possible risks kind of like just taking my kids for a walk in a big city in daylight. Sometimes bad things happen to good people there is no rhyme or reason to it Monday morning quarter backing a person’s decision is easy as hindsight is always 20/20.
Regardless of my employment, I have had CCW permits forever and I would and will continue to carry whenever an where ever I felt there was a risk of some nut job showing up as history in the last 15 plus years there is no longer any place you could consider safe from the random act of violence.
These are just off the top of my head and one cup of coffee and are my opinions and everyone is allowed to agree or disagree with them. The only way in my opinion an armed person could have stopped the shooter would have been to be right next to him and be quick enough to ID him as a threat and not part of the show or a LEO securing a building due to a threat.


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Old 07-20-2012, 07:08 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsterchop200 View Post
Yes my training teaches me to ELIMINATE THE THREAT at all cost. If inocents are injured it is very unfortunate but the inocents injured by somebody reacting to the threat are likely to be far fewer than no body reacting at all. Most weapons carriers can draw a weapon in under 2 seconds and put accurate rounds on target. Add stress and the dynamic environment and you could proably double this reaction time in most cases to 4 seconds. For me there is nothing to think about, ASS HOLE KILLING PEOPLE, I KILL ASS HOLE.

Also the majority of CCW holders also don't have any formal training or experience outside of a couple hour class that is usually just to familiarize the students with the states laws and gun safety. Once again we have to live with our decision, turn and run or stay and fight.
I had about 10 other quotes I was going to comment on until I read this ^^^ ARE YOU SERIOUS!?!? If I were still living in Florida I would PRAY that I did not live anywhere NEAR where you are an officer. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO COLLATERAL DAMAGE acceptable in a situation such as this!WTF dude? "If innocents are injured it is very unfortunate"? You want to explain that to the families of those "collateral damage" people??? I try to be a good Christian, but I would find myself ABSOLUTELY unable to forgive you if you were in that situation and tried to "resolve it" and my family member, or anyone elses family member was killed as a result! EVER.
Tell me this, how much real world experience do you HAVE in a real shoot out? Ever been shot at? Ever had someone that specifically wanted YOU dead? Cause I have been there son. I have been places where the other guy wanted me dead, and let me tell you, no amount of training can make it easier. You wanting to just pull and start shooting to "draw his attention" and damn the results is something that in my OPINION should result in no less than having your badge pulled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenobe View Post
Another tragedy for my state. A buddy was there with his son (and concerned only for his son, not taking out the bad guy). They got out safe.

Of course incidents like this only ignite both sides of the gun debate - the ones who question how easily the weapons were acquired and the others who think they're a hitman like the Tom Cruise character.
Kenobe, I am glad that you friend and his son got out uninjured. It is a time like this that makes you realize how precious life is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 98tacoma27 View Post
I'll add to this with stating my state doesn't not require any class or training for a CCW. We are also an open carry state.

I'll also add that if you have not been exposed to tear gas, even in small doses, it is a very shocking thing. It doesn't matter how many times you are told that it will not harm you, that it is not poisonous, that you will survive; you think you are going to die. There are few people in this world who could actively and effectively take out an assailant while under the full effects of tear gas. The people with the best chances are LEO's and active/former military personnel (especially grunts). Even then I would not expect them to be able neutralize the threat.


But hey, we are all just a bunch of armchair quarterbacks here anyway.
AMEN brother! Tear gas is NOT something that you can just push through. It makes you feel like your guts are going to literally come out your nose and throat. Not something to mess with lightly. Thank you sir for your service.
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:11 AM   #60
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Name: Dave
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Such a sad story. My prayers and thoughts go out to Aurora Colorado and all those involved.
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