F that rebel flag!!!

gm3bow · 11-21-2007, 11:52 PM

There's no way that the stupid rebel flag represents "heritage" and not hate. That f'en flag represents alot of bad shiat that has happened in this country. F you and any m*f*cker that flies that shiat. I'm out and never coming back to this f*en site. Pinches gringos culeros!! F*ck your responses too biatches!! I don't mean this to 007 or tcbob.

ERdept · 11-22-2007, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gm3bow

There's no way that the stupid rebel flag represents "heritage" and not hate. That f'en flag represents alot of bad shiat that has happened in this country. F you and any m*f*cker that flies that shiat. I'm out and never coming back to this f*en site. Pinches gringos culeros!! F*ck your responses too biatches!! I don't mean this to 007 or tcbob.

What happened to cause you to get so angry?

Viper-2 · 11-22-2007, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERdept

What happened to cause you to get so angry?

He's angry at the rebel flag some have in their avatars. I think maybe he has a point in a way with the way some of the avatars have been going. I was afraid this would happen after seeing some of them.

The upside down cross and the rebel flags I knew would offend someone.

concrete jedi · 11-22-2007, 06:20 AM

There is only one flag you should be concerned with, I am not a fan of the rebel flag, but it is a part of history. The intention was to show something completely different but as a society we picked up on the negative. There will alway be people to migrate towards symbols, some go to the rebel flag, some people go to a cross. Don't let a smudge in history upset you, life is short, live big, be happy, move in positive directions, and the people that wave the rebel flag for nasty reasons will never be were you are. Have a great Thanksgiving.

gwimo69 · 11-22-2007, 06:28 AM

Look obviously your hispanic and from that i can see why you have that point of view. But for some people the rebel flag represents the history of their families, just because some people of the time used it as a symbol of their hate doesn;t make it a symbol of hate you seem to be talking down and insulting who ever uses this symbol. Look into the history a bit and maybe you can clear your mind of the ignorance it posses. Instead of cussing on a public forum and showing your own ignorance. Then you might be able to t actually seem intelligent.and if you think im white... Im puerto rican raised in the bronx.

concrete jedi · 11-22-2007, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viper-2

He's angry at the rebel flag some have in their avatars. I think maybe he has a point in a way with the way some of the avatars have been going. I was afraid this would happen after seeing some of them.

The upside down cross and the rebel flags I knew would offend someone.

Not to fan the flames of this matter, what does the upside cross stand for ?

Viper-2 · 11-22-2007, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by concrete jedi

Not to fan the flames of this matter, what does the upside cross stand for ?

I have no idea.

Dcrooks84 · 11-22-2007, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by concrete jedi

Not to fan the flames of this matter, what does the upside cross stand for ?

The upside down cross is actually St. Peter's cross. He was crucified upside down on his own request as he felt that he didn't deserve to be crucified in the same manner in which Jesus was. He didn't feel that he had a lead a life that was worthy of his own sacrifice in the same manner. So it represents a respect to Jesus showing that he was sacrificed and that we are in no way in the same light as he and are not worthy to be taken from this world in the same manner as him.

concrete jedi · 11-22-2007, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viper-2

I have no idea, but crooks is using it and I don't know why.

I see, well, I'll get back to you, the answer lies somewhere in the internet

Dcrooks84 · 11-22-2007, 06:53 AM

I decided to change it as it would just cause too much of a stink. Even if I explain it now new people won't view it the way it should be. Oh well. If you would like to know though it was St. Peter's cross. It does actually have really good symbolic meaning, however people will see it in a bad light and we want to have good relationships with each other here so it has been changed.

ERdept · 11-22-2007, 07:28 AM

Oh, I see. I see the flag and symbols on the avitars.

My take on it is that it represents the past history of certain states. This is historical. This is a fact of these states. Undeniable.

To me there is nothing wrong with history because it's factual.

But the issue here is not history. The issues is the assumption that those who use those symbols admire those beliefs.

I understand that it may be just the fact that it is part of a state's heritage. I was born in Mineral Wells, Texas. I definitely don't look caucasian, but I do recognize that Texas was part of the Confediracy. I have no problems personally with the fact that Texas was in it.

I even will go further to say that if I did put up an avitar with a Texas flag and a Confederate one, I'm only paying homage to the fact that this was part of the state's rich history and not that I believe or practice those tenets of the past biases. It would just be my expression of pride in my state and how it was formed. Not pride in it's past thinking.

So it doesn't bother me as I don't assume that the person(s) who use this symbol are saying that they believe in being biased. They may very well believe thost things, but I cannot base my anger on assumption of someone else's thinking. This is just all manufactured in my head. This is where the trouble begins.

In all, I don't have a problem with it. I like muscle cars. Mopars being one of my favorites. The General Lee on the Dukes of Hazard was emblazoned with the rebel flag, but this is because they were in the south and that is part of the state's heritage. Again, it's just a part of a state's past, but not a representation of a person't belief.

Just my take as others have their take on this matter. It's neither right nor wrong. But I believe it to be an unbiased and logical form of thinking and forming conclusion about these symbols without jumping to conclusions.

concrete jedi · 11-22-2007, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dcrooks84

The upside down cross is actually St. Peter's cross. He was crucified upside down on his own request as he felt that he didn't deserve to be crucified in the same manner in which Jesus was. He didn't feel that he had a lead a life that was worthy of his own sacrifice in the same manner. So it represents a respect to Jesus showing that he was sacrificed and that we are in no way in the same light as he and are not worthy to be taken from this world in the same manner as him.

Wow that is really powerful stuff, I went to upside down flags on the internet and did not find St. Peter's flag but found out so much about flags that I did not know, I am not angry at all but because of your avatar and my courious nature allowed me to find some great knowledge, considering what St. Peter's cross stands for you have my utmost respect and would hope you went back to it. Drive on

tacomaman06 · 11-22-2007, 08:21 AM

i am sorry to all that were offended by the confederate flags as some of our "carolina alliance" members avatars. it certainly was not intended to be racist in any manner, and im offended that were are basically being called "racist" for using something thats part of history. it wasnt our intentions at all.

it really sucks that people let something so simple as a flag bother them. come on people..........its 2007, almost 08!!

gdawg25 · 11-22-2007, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacomaman06

i am sorry to all that were offended by the confederate flags as some of our "carolina alliance" members avatars. it certainly was not intended to be racist in any manner, and im offended that were are basically being called "racist" for using something thats part of history. it wasnt our intentions at all.

it really sucks that people let something so simple as a flag bother them. come on people..........its 2007, almost 08!!

I like your new avatar better! LOL!

tacomaman06 · 11-22-2007, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdawg25

I like your new avatar better! LOL!

thanks man. i like it too, but hell, im told its offensive also!! is there really any pleasing anyone???

TheMaster · 11-22-2007, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gm3bow

.... stupid

Alliance. That's what I've been saying all along.

The Alliance gets kicked in the nuts again. Ha ha ha

. This time by one of their own

. I had an allay and didn't even know it. If you come back, you can join my Alliance any time. I'll give you executive powers. If you come to Canada, I'll treat you like King. All the Steak you can eat

. You the Man

gm3bow, listen to me man. The Carolina Alliance was the stupidest thing since sliced bread and the better mouse trap. Together we can hang their founder "nd" and his closest disciple "tacomaman". I have two nooses set up with jumper cables. We'll shock them with 12 volts

and laugh our donkeys off.

ERdept · 11-22-2007, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacomaman06

thanks man. i like it too, but hell, im told its offensive also!! is there really any pleasing anyone???

Everything's offensive to someone. I like your avitar too. I think it says at this time my thoughts about those thinking they're offended by history. ha ha ha.

maverick491 · 11-22-2007, 08:34 AM

I was going to try to stay out of this, I really was, but I think there are a few things that need to be cleared up. If you'll take notice the Southern Cross, or Confederate Navy Jack (not to be confused with the stars and bars) in my avatar has the words Heritage Not Hate written across it, So I guess I am the original target of this rant. That's fine I can take it, but if you are going to rant at me then you better check your facts first.

This and many other articles can be found at The Southron & Confederate Information Center

A LESSON IN HISTORY
The TRUE War of 1861

By Russell R. Lenzini

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Recently, I received an email from a very angry man in Michigan. Having absolutely no personal knowledge of myself, my family, my beliefs or ideology, he proceeded to lecture me on my sinful ways. He accused me of being a sinner, a racist, and being un-American.
This was because of his venomous hatred of my use of a Confederate battle flag image as an email icon on my web page.

While I do agree with his 1st Amendment Right to free speech & his opinion (whether educated or not) of my web pages, vocation and businesses and enterprises; I must also voice my concern.

IN NO WAY DO I, OR MY BUSINESS, SUPPORT ANY FACTION OR HATE GROUP INVOLVED IN RACISM, SEGREGATION OR ENSLAVEMENT OF ANY RACE, RELIGION, OR GENDER.

Let it be known that the Confederate flag is an honored symbol of a portion of our national history. It in no way reflects slavery, bigotry or hatred.

Many revisionists and spin doctors will spread the misconception of the war of 1861-1865 as being that it was fought over slavery. NOT TRUE...

In actuality, what these revisionists of true history are doing started back in the early 1960's and is referred to amongst the people that know true history, as the "Second Reconstruction". Trying to rewrite and destroy all semblance, vestiges and heritage of a Southern Nation. It is a distorted and perverse legacy of what was once the civil rights movement.

But, it has became rabid and venomous, and has an agenda to persuade you to forget about real history at any price. Including the mockery and altering of history.

Anyway, to get back to the historic factor involved, the South fought for Southern Independence and to repel Northern oppression and aggressions. The North fought for monetary gain and financial superiority. Plain and simple. Be very clear about that!!!!

I have been, and still am, a student of history through many years of education, research and archeology. I have direct family lineage to some of the very first settlers in the "new world", as well as being descended from veterans of the Revolutionary War and War of 1812.

Now then, the kicker...I also have direct blood ancestors that fought for the Union army as well as having Confederate ancestors that fought for the South during the years of 1861-1865. I have no bias what-so-ever as far as the so called "civil war".

And I will assure you that I have never owned a slave in my life, nor has any of my relatives. I can hear the cries of " he's just an unreconstructed Rebel" or "he's just a Neo-Confederate" flying freely.

Call me what you will, but I am simply an honest & accurate historian as well as an American Patriot. Someone not afraid of the truth nor afraid to stand up for actual history and heritage.

My only attempt in writing this essay is to tell the whole story, and to let the interested parties see what has been kept from them. Something the revisionists and "spin doctors" will never tell you!!!!

* * * THE FIRST CASUALTY IN WAR IS TRUTH * * *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Issue 1 - The Flag
The "flag" that the gentleman from Michigan, and all others across the United States, are up in arms about is historically known as the Confederate Battle Flag. It was never a national flag of the Southern States, so how could it represent the Southern cause? It was simply a battleflag carried in war.

There a were 3 different Confederate National flags that flew during those war years. You may click here to view them. None of the South's National flags are at the center of controversy. And even more importantly never did the Confederate battle flag stand as a national symbol to fly over a slave nation!!!! So, you can see how distorted a person's conception over a simple piece of cloth has been terribly misunderstood.

Before another misconception gets started, the reason that the Confederacy had 3 different national flags was that the 1st was too similar in battle to the "Stars & Stripes". Lot's of confusion due to the similarities. The second was also mistaken at times for a flag of surrender. The 3rd national flag was the final result and the adopted flag of the Confederacy.

A compelling point to consider, is also the fact that the good old "Stars & Stripes" of the United States flew over a slave nation for over 80 years!! Wow, has everyone forgotten about that??

Why aren't the revisionists, lobbyists, minority groups and historically impaired trying to get the "Stars & Stripes" removed from government buildings, t-shirts, football teams, etc??? I will tell you why, because they are not truly aware of what they are trying to resolve. Confused, uneducated and terribly ill-informed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Issue 2 - The Term "Civil War"
Lets start fresh and have a true definition of the term "civil war". A civil war is an internal revolt, between two parts of one nation. Yet, the conflict that bears the name of American Civil War was really a war that occurred between two independent nations. The Southern states were only exercising it's constitutional right to secede. Plain and simple. To be called a "civil war" actually implies that the South was really never separate or independent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Issue 3 - Was Secession Legal & Patriotic??
Absolutely!!!!!!!. Most of those who wrote and ratified the federal Constitution recognized secession as a legitimate, legal, and constitutional measure of protection against the possibility that the general government might in the future consolidate and centralize political power, violate the terms of the Constitution, and usurp the rights and liberties of the people of the sovereign States.

Thomas Jefferson himself believed in secession as a constitutional measure. Secession is a natural right of any people and has recently been exercised peacefully and successfully by many countries—Slovenia, Croatia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Ukraine.

Now then... This is where the real substance of the War of 1861 comes into play. And I can do no better justice, logic and historic relevance, but as to quote the words of Thomas Guinn:

" If the Southern States hold no right of secession, then the secession of the thirteen colonies from Great Britain is invalid, and the revolutionary war to secure independence unlawful. In such case, we all remain as colonies, and are subject to the British Crown. The Secession of the Colonies, and the Secession of the thirteen States, can not be one good and the other evil, they are both one or the other. Similar conditions existed in both cases and both felt their liberties threatened."

--Thomas Guinn

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Continued in next post...

maverick491 · 11-22-2007, 08:35 AM

Issue 4 - Why The War Was Fought
In actuality the Southern States fought to repel aggression & invasion and also for self-government, just as the fathers of the American revolution had done.

President Abraham Lincoln himself confessed at first that he had no constitutional right to make war against a State, so he resorted to the subterfuge of calling for troops to suppress "combinations" of persons in the Southern States "too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary" processes.

Now then, with that said, here are the perspectives from which the North and South went to war in 1861.

1) The North. The Northern States held approximately 80-90% of the industrial capabilities of the States. But, these industrial capabilities were useless without the raw products coming from the South. Tobacco, cotton, hemp, etc were what the North used to maintain its economic stranglehold and wealth. Without the South's raw materials, it would have been economic and political disaster. And this simply would no be tolerated by the North. The statement "War is money" was as valid then as it is now.

2) The South. The Southern States were simple workers who provided products that were shipped overseas. The North did not care what type of labor supplied these products. Slavery, to the North, was a Division Of Labor. And after many years of abuse and oppression, the South had tired from being subjected to Northern rules of politics, trade and economy. The "fat cats" of the North were strangling the South. And the South knew this. They simply tired of this folly, and proceeded to establish a new government for themselves as did the colonists when they wanted their freedom from King George III of Britain.
So, as you can see, slavery was not the issue for the War Of 1861 - 1865. Many want you to believe that the war was totally fought over the issue of slavery, but they are not the true purveyors of history. The same holds true today as it did years ago.

During the war, Frederick Douglass petitioned and lobbied Washington to get the war recognized as being fought solely over the issue of slavery. Douglass stated "That the war now being waged in this land is a war fought for and against slavery".

The Great Emancipator himself, Abraham Lincoln, publicly said time and time again that quite simply "The war is being fought for Union, not slavery".

One of the most outstanding statements that was ever uttered in the war, occurred in Tennessee in 1862. A Federal squad of soldiers had captured a single, ragged and underfed Confederate soldier. It was obvious that this Confederate soldier owned no slaves and was a worker of the land himself.

The Federal soldiers asked of the Confederate "What are you fighting for anyhow?"

The Confederate soldier simply replied "I'm fighting because you are down here".

I now pose to you a question. If strangers from a different land came into your cities and your homes to take from you what is rightfully yours, would you not fight for yourself and your family as well as your Constitutional rights? Or would you cower down to the aggressors and oppressors and allow yourself to be dictated to? I think the answer is quite obvious.

All in all the South only wanted was it's God given right to govern and defend themselves as provided under the Constitution.

Article 4 - Section 4 : The United States shall guaranteee to every state in the Union a Republican f

11-21-2007, 11:52 PM	#1
gm3bow Western Alliance: ESO Joined: Jan 2007, #773 Location: Oakland, CA Posts: 205	F that rebel flag!!! There's no way that the stupid rebel flag represents "heritage" and not hate. That f'en flag represents alot of bad shiat that has happened in this country. F you and any mfcker that flies that shiat. I'm out and never coming back to this fen site. Pinches gringos culeros!! Fck your responses too biatches!! I don't mean this to 007 or tcbob. __________________ 07 Taco, 2.7L, Access Cab, silver, afe drop-in, Flowmaster 40 n' chrome tip, Westin chrome nerfs, 2 12" cheapy Insignia subs in a sealed box, Audiobahn A400 2T amp, cheapy 200watt amp, 16" rims, 235/70/16 Pathfinders, Lund bug shield n' rain guards, "secondary" filter removed, l.e.d. turn signals, turn signal/side marker mod, eDead sound deadner, 4" fogs, Magellan 3100 gps

11-22-2007, 06:28 AM	#5
gwimo69 Junior Member Joined: Aug 2007, #2443 Posts: 5 2007 tacoma double cab v6 4x4 short bed 2007 Double Cab Automatic	Wow man Look obviously your hispanic and from that i can see why you have that point of view. But for some people the rebel flag represents the history of their families, just because some people of the time used it as a symbol of their hate doesn;t make it a symbol of hate you seem to be talking down and insulting who ever uses this symbol. Look into the history a bit and maybe you can clear your mind of the ignorance it posses. Instead of cussing on a public forum and showing your own ignorance. Then you might be able to t actually seem intelligent.and if you think im white... Im puerto rican raised in the bronx. __________________ lifes tribulations are stepping stones to excellence

11-22-2007, 06:53 AM	#10
Dcrooks84 Carolina Alliance: Midwest Beer Division Joined: Nov 2007, #3347 Location: Ohio Age: 24 Posts: 392 05 double cab SR5 Pkg #8 lng bd 4X4 2005 Double Cab Automatic 4.0L V6 Removed secondary air filter, Fog light anytime, Map light mod, Scan Gauge II, Polished Stainless Steel Westin E-Series Bull Bar	I decided to change it as it would just cause too much of a stink. Even if I explain it now new people won't view it the way it should be. Oh well. If you would like to know though it was St. Peter's cross. It does actually have really good symbolic meaning, however people will see it in a bad light and we want to have good relationships with each other here so it has been changed. __________________ "First start by doing the necessary, then the possible. Soon you will find yourself doing the impossible."

11-22-2007, 08:21 AM	#13
tacomaman06 Carolina Alliance: Redneck Division Joined: May 2007, #1475 Location: rock hill, sc Age: 29 Gender: Male Posts: 10,968 04 trd tacoma 4x4 v6 double cab 2004 Double Cab Automatic 3.4 v6 vent visors,deck plate mod, gray wire mod, black steelies and emblems, mag-lite mod, wheelers/ome suspension, stainless brake lines,blacked out bumpers(bedliner),dynomax super turbo muffler,cabelas mossy oak seat covers ans camo steering wheel cover....still to come.... afe pro dry s filter..........plus many,many more!!	i am sorry to all that were offended by the confederate flags as some of our "carolina alliance" members avatars. it certainly was not intended to be racist in any manner, and im offended that were are basically being called "racist" for using something thats part of history. it wasnt our intentions at all. it really sucks that people let something so simple as a flag bother them. come on people..........its 2007, almost 08!! __________________ i am WILL--my ride=04 tacoma trd 4x4 double cab, v6, auto,deck plate mod, grey wire mod, billy 5100's all the way around,black low-pro uws toolbox, black steelies,blacked out emblems, mag light mod,wheelers/alcan springs, ome 881 coils, braided stainless brake lines, polyurethane bushings,dynomax super turbo/slash cut tip-blacked out,chrome deleted bumpers via herculiner bed liner,color matched bedlinered tailgate, camo seat covers,sockemoney decals and still to come....15 inch wheelers steelies and gy wrangler mtr's!!! http://s202.photobucket.com/albums/aa269/tacomaman06/ signature by piercedtiger www.myspace.com/goodolboy1979

11-22-2007, 08:34 AM	#18
maverick491 Towing Guru Joined: Apr 2007, #1462 Location: South Jersey Age: 32 Gender: Male Posts: 1,010 07 4x4 Access Cab, TRD off road, 6 cyl, 6 spd 2007 Access Cab Manual 4.0L V6 Activator III brake controller, Extang Fulltilt toneau, Factory bed mat, Extra D-rings in the bed, 2ndary air filter removed, Garmin Ique GPS, Eco-2, AFE Pro Dry-s filter, USASPEC PA12-toy, Pioneer 3-way speakers, SG II on Blendmount, Gulf States Alarm added.	A very long dissertation on the heritage of the south. Page 1 I was going to try to stay out of this, I really was, but I think there are a few things that need to be cleared up. If you'll take notice the Southern Cross, or Confederate Navy Jack (not to be confused with the stars and bars) in my avatar has the words Heritage Not Hate written across it, So I guess I am the original target of this rant. That's fine I can take it, but if you are going to rant at me then you better check your facts first. This and many other articles can be found at The Southron & Confederate Information Center A LESSON IN HISTORY The TRUE War of 1861 By Russell R. Lenzini -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Recently, I received an email from a very angry man in Michigan. Having absolutely no personal knowledge of myself, my family, my beliefs or ideology, he proceeded to lecture me on my sinful ways. He accused me of being a sinner, a racist, and being un-American. This was because of his venomous hatred of my use of a Confederate battle flag image as an email icon on my web page. While I do agree with his 1st Amendment Right to free speech & his opinion (whether educated or not) of my web pages, vocation and businesses and enterprises; I must also voice my concern. IN NO WAY DO I, OR MY BUSINESS, SUPPORT ANY FACTION OR HATE GROUP INVOLVED IN RACISM, SEGREGATION OR ENSLAVEMENT OF ANY RACE, RELIGION, OR GENDER. Let it be known that the Confederate flag is an honored symbol of a portion of our national history. It in no way reflects slavery, bigotry or hatred. Many revisionists and spin doctors will spread the misconception of the war of 1861-1865 as being that it was fought over slavery. NOT TRUE... In actuality, what these revisionists of true history are doing started back in the early 1960's and is referred to amongst the people that know true history, as the "Second Reconstruction". Trying to rewrite and destroy all semblance, vestiges and heritage of a Southern Nation. It is a distorted and perverse legacy of what was once the civil rights movement. But, it has became rabid and venomous, and has an agenda to persuade you to forget about real history at any price. Including the mockery and altering of history. Anyway, to get back to the historic factor involved, the South fought for Southern Independence and to repel Northern oppression and aggressions. The North fought for monetary gain and financial superiority. Plain and simple. Be very clear about that!!!! I have been, and still am, a student of history through many years of education, research and archeology. I have direct family lineage to some of the very first settlers in the "new world", as well as being descended from veterans of the Revolutionary War and War of 1812. Now then, the kicker...I also have direct blood ancestors that fought for the Union army as well as having Confederate ancestors that fought for the South during the years of 1861-1865. I have no bias what-so-ever as far as the so called "civil war". And I will assure you that I have never owned a slave in my life, nor has any of my relatives. I can hear the cries of " he's just an unreconstructed Rebel" or "he's just a Neo-Confederate" flying freely. Call me what you will, but I am simply an honest & accurate historian as well as an American Patriot. Someone not afraid of the truth nor afraid to stand up for actual history and heritage. My only attempt in writing this essay is to tell the whole story, and to let the interested parties see what has been kept from them. Something the revisionists and "spin doctors" will never tell you!!!! *** * * THE FIRST CASUALTY IN WAR IS TRUTH * * * -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Issue 1 - The Flag The "flag" that the gentleman from Michigan, and all others across the United States, are up in arms about is historically known as the Confederate Battle Flag. It was never a national flag of the Southern States, so how could it represent the Southern cause? It was simply a battleflag carried in war. There a were 3 different Confederate National flags that flew during those war years. You may click here to view them. None of the South's National flags are at the center of controversy. And even more importantly never did the Confederate battle flag stand as a national symbol to fly over a slave nation!!!! So, you can see how distorted a person's conception over a simple piece of cloth has been terribly misunderstood. Before another misconception gets started, the reason that the Confederacy had 3 different national flags was that the 1st was too similar in battle to the "Stars & Stripes". Lot's of confusion due to the similarities. The second was also mistaken at times for a flag of surrender. The 3rd national flag was the final result and the adopted flag of the Confederacy. A compelling point to consider, is also the fact that the good old "Stars & Stripes" of the United States flew over a slave nation for over 80 years!! Wow, has everyone forgotten about that?? Why aren't the revisionists, lobbyists, minority groups and historically impaired trying to get the "Stars & Stripes" removed from government buildings, t-shirts, football teams, etc??? I will tell you why, because they are not truly aware of what they are trying to resolve. Confused, uneducated and terribly ill-informed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Issue 2 - The Term "Civil War" Lets start fresh and have a true definition of the term "civil war". A civil war is an internal revolt, between two parts of one nation. Yet, the conflict that bears the name of American Civil War was really a war that occurred between two independent nations. The Southern states were only exercising it's constitutional right to secede. Plain and simple. To be called a "civil war" actually implies that the South was really never separate or independent. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Issue 3 - Was Secession Legal & Patriotic?? Absolutely!!!!!!!. Most of those who wrote and ratified the federal Constitution recognized secession as a legitimate, legal, and constitutional measure of protection against the possibility that the general government might in the future consolidate and centralize political power, violate the terms of the Constitution, and usurp the rights and liberties of the people of the sovereign States. Thomas Jefferson himself believed in secession as a constitutional measure. Secession is a natural right of any people and has recently been exercised peacefully and successfully by many countries—Slovenia, Croatia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Ukraine. Now then... This is where the real substance of the War of 1861 comes into play. And I can do no better justice, logic and historic relevance, but as to quote the words of Thomas Guinn: " If the Southern States hold no right of secession, then the secession of the thirteen colonies from Great Britain is invalid, and the revolutionary war to secure independence unlawful. In such case, we all remain as colonies, and are subject to the British Crown. The Secession of the Colonies, and the Secession of the thirteen States, can not be one good and the other evil, they are both one or the other. Similar conditions existed in both cases and both felt their liberties threatened." --Thomas Guinn -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Continued in next post... __________________ Maverick491 (Adam) DIY MODS** Activator III brake controller Extra D-rings Aftermarket speakers w/TacoTunes mounting kit Illuminated 4wd switch ECO-2 VPE Scangauge II/Blendmount

11-22-2007, 06:20 AM	#4
concrete jedi Senior Member Joined: Oct 2007, #3142 Location: Rochester N.Y Age: 43 Posts: 2,569 06 Tacoma 4 door indigo blue 2006 Double Cab Manual V-6 4.0 liter Broken and scratched tailgate, cracked rear tail light lens, coffee stain in driver seat.	There is only one flag you should be concerned with, I am not a fan of the rebel flag, but it is a part of history. The intention was to show something completely different but as a society we picked up on the negative. There will alway be people to migrate towards symbols, some go to the rebel flag, some people go to a cross. Don't let a smudge in history upset you, life is short, live big, be happy, move in positive directions, and the people that wave the rebel flag for nasty reasons will never be were you are. Have a great Thanksgiving.

11-22-2007, 07:28 AM	#11
ERdept Senior Member Joined: Oct 2007, #3187 Location: Kali Posts: 563 2008 Prerunner Silver. 2008 Access Cab Automatic 6 cylinder Steering wheel cover and Pop lock, custom full seat silver sheepskins, trailer hitch clevis, gas cap lock. Weathertec mats, Hella horns, Revo tires,, Toytec lift,, Magnaflow exhaust, Ichiba wheel spacers 30mm, A.R.E. Z series shell, URD CAI, secondary air filter removed, debadged, Ultra white lights, JDM yellow fogs bulbs, Fumoto drain valve.	Oh, I see. I see the flag and symbols on the avitars. My take on it is that it represents the past history of certain states. This is historical. This is a fact of these states. Undeniable. To me there is nothing wrong with history because it's factual. But the issue here is not history. The issues is the assumption that those who use those symbols admire those beliefs. I understand that it may be just the fact that it is part of a state's heritage. I was born in Mineral Wells, Texas. I definitely don't look caucasian, but I do recognize that Texas was part of the Confediracy. I have no problems personally with the fact that Texas was in it. I even will go further to say that if I did put up an avitar with a Texas flag and a Confederate one, I'm only paying homage to the fact that this was part of the state's rich history and not that I believe or practice those tenets of the past biases. It would just be my expression of pride in my state and how it was formed. Not pride in it's past thinking. So it doesn't bother me as I don't assume that the person(s) who use this symbol are saying that they believe in being biased. They may very well believe thost things, but I cannot base my anger on assumption of someone else's thinking. This is just all manufactured in my head. This is where the trouble begins. In all, I don't have a problem with it. I like muscle cars. Mopars being one of my favorites. The General Lee on the Dukes of Hazard was emblazoned with the rebel flag, but this is because they were in the south and that is part of the state's heritage. Again, it's just a part of a state's past, but not a representation of a person't belief. Just my take as others have their take on this matter. It's neither right nor wrong. But I believe it to be an unbiased and logical form of thinking and forming conclusion about these symbols without jumping to conclusions.