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Old 03-31-2008, 07:05 AM   #1
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Little help from our Canadian members

Gentlemen,

I am not about to get up on a soap box regarding what I do or don't believe about wildlife conservation, but it has come to my attention that there was an altercation yesterday off the eastern coast of Canada between a Sea Shepherd Conservation Society Vessel and a Canadian Coast Guard Icebreaker. The two accounts of the story I was able to find are copied and linked below.

From the Sea Shepherd group http://www.seashepherd.org/news/media_080330_2.html

Sea Shepherd News
News Releases

03/30/2008

Canadian Coast Guard Rams Farley Mowat

The Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker CCGS Des Groseilliers twice rammed the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society ship Farley Mowat today.

The Coast Guard had ordered the Farley Mowat to not approach the area where seals are being slaughtered. When the Farley Mowat did not comply, the Coast Guard rammed the vessel near the port aft stern area. After the Farley Mowat stopped in the ice, the Coast Guard rammed the ship a second time in the same area of the ship causing damage to the plates in that area.

The Coast Guard has demonstrated extreme recklessness with this move. The crew of the Farley Mowat were engaged in documenting the slaughter of seals. They were not interfering with the hunt.

“I’m beginning to wonder if anyone on the bridge of the Groseilliers has a license to command a ship,” said Captain Alex Cornelissen. “The incompetence of the Coast Guard has already cost the lives of four sealers this week-end and now they are ramming ships in dangerous ice conditions. This is unbelievable. It’s like the Coast Guard has declared war on seal defenders and the sealers are collateral damage.”

The Farley Mowat will remain in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and will continue to document the atrocities on the ice. Already the crew have seen enough evidence to understand that the Canadian government’s pretense that the slaughter is humane has no basis in reality – in other words it’s a state sponsored lie.

“It appears that Canada is prepared to use violence to cover-up the truth of this slaughter,” said Captain Paul Watson. “Our duty is to resist their violence and continue to document the truth.”


From The Canadian Press http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../BNStory/Front

Confrontation breaks out over East Coast seal hunt
The Canadian Press

March 31, 2008 at 9:08 AM EDT

HALIFAX — A Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker and a ship owned by a militant conservation group have collided in the Gulf of St. Lawrence as tension mounts over the annual seal hunt off Canada's East Coast.

A spokesman for the federal Fisheries Department said Monday that the icebreaker was “grazed” twice by the Farley Mowat, owned by the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.

But the conservation group said its ship was rammed twice Sunday by the icebreaker Des Groseilliers.

Department spokesman Phil Jenkins called the allegation that the Farley Mowat was rammed “absolutely false.”

The crew aboard the Farley Mowat said they were told by the coast guard not to approach the area where seals were being slaughtered on the third day of the hunt.

The conservation group said the coast guard ship rammed its vessel twice when the Farley Mowat did not comply.

I am not going to get into which version of the story is true as the truth likely lies somewhere between the two versions, however I am sure that we can all agree that both captains acted irresponsibly as there is no way in hell that the two ships should have been close enough to touch/graze/ram/whatever.

So my point to all this is to ask our Canadian members to contact their government and request some kind of explination. As I should think that the Canadian Government would be far more likely to care what it's citizens think than care what I think.

Regardless of weather sealing is right or wrong, there is no excuse for maratime recklessness such as this. Also please feel free to send some messages to Sea Shepherd as well, as their captain also should have been taking action to keep sufficient distance between the two ships as well.

Thanks for taking the time to help me address this.
 
Old 03-31-2008, 02:09 PM   #2
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In my opinion it doesnt matter which story is true, either way the Sea Shepard ship was at fault. if the Coast Guards story is true, then they attacked a coast guard vessel. if their story is true, then they didnt comply with the Coast Guards orders and deserved whatever action was taken to enforce the law. Either way, the Sea Shepards are at fault.
 
Old 03-31-2008, 02:17 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndcouch View Post
In my opinion it doesnt matter which story is true, either way the Sea Shepard ship was at fault. if the Coast Guards story is true, then they attacked a coast guard vessel. if their story is true, then they didnt comply with the Coast Guards orders and deserved whatever action was taken to enforce the law. Either way, the Sea Shepards are at fault.
Maratime laws and right of way rules only hold upto the point of imanent danger after that point it is my understanding that every action is to be taken to avoid any type of collision. In much the same way that you or I have no right to run someone off the road for failing to yield or something. Also, the Coast Guard ship was an Icebreaker, that means a massively re-inforced bow, think Stockholm vs Andrea Doria here. Or Suburban vs Kia. I still maintain that both captains were at fault.
 
Old 03-31-2008, 02:26 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by maverick491 View Post
Maratime laws and right of way rules only hold upto the point of imanent danger after that point it is my understanding that every action is to be taken to avoid any type of collision. In much the same way that you or I have no right to run someone off the road for failing to yield or something. Also, the Coast Guard ship was an Icebreaker, that means a massively re-inforced bow, think Stockholm vs Andrea Doria here. Or Suburban vs Kia. I still maintain that both captains were at fault.
i guess ihave the mentallity of "stop or i'll shoot" means "i'm gonna shoot your ass if you keep moving". i have no problem with the coast guard taking action if they are ignored. especially by any kind of organized anti "whatever" group like the Sea Shepards. and i'm not just saying that cause they are environmentalists. any group, whether i agree with their ideals or not, that break the law or push the law to get their way need to be watched carefully and kept in check if necessary. but tahts just my honest opinion. i would be interested to see what really happened. i would like to see the damage to the other ship
 
Old 03-31-2008, 03:01 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by phantom View Post
i think they might have been busy with a rescue try
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia...stigation.html

and the harvesting of the seals is a sensitive subject for all, i do not think there is a black or white answer for it .

i do not support the harvest, NOR do i support the cowboy tricks of some of the folks
and the same thing applies to wailing

if i remember right that area belongs to canada, so their coast guard would have authority to operate and control traffic, sorry
i'm not saying this to be funny, but i didnt think Canada actually had a coast guard. i thought they relied on the American Coast guard?
 
Old 03-31-2008, 03:01 PM   #6
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I'm of the same mentality as couch on this one. It seems to me that the Coast Guard is an entity of law enforcement. If law enforcement tells you to stop, you either stop or deal with the consequences.
 
Old 03-31-2008, 03:39 PM   #7
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What laws was the other ship breaking? If they're not breaking a law, then the coast guard has no right to detain them.
 
Old 03-31-2008, 03:46 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by ndcouch View Post
i'm not saying this to be funny, but i didnt think Canada actually had a coast guard. i thought they relied on the American Coast guard?
Dude, are you serious?

In other news - regardless of what is right or wrong regarding marine life harvesting - this isn't the first time these guys have pulled illegal and harassing stunts.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew..._name=&no_ads=

http://www.hdrjapan.com/japan/japan-...rotten-butter/

The Coast Guard were keeping close watch on these guys as they regularly harass, vandalize, and endanger fisher persons who chose this career path. I'm not condemning the actions of either Captain, but the Sea Shepard Society has been well known to operate ships in and around other fleets without due care and attention.

EDIT: Spelling and addition of links
 
Old 03-31-2008, 04:10 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by lsocoee View Post
What laws was the other ship breaking? If they're not breaking a law, then the coast guard has no right to detain them.
Again, this is only what I have heard from a freind of mine who is involved with Sea Shepherd, but as I understand it the Sea Shepherd vessel was not breaking any law. They were outside of the 12 mile off-shore mark which makes them in international waters, therefor outside of Canadian Coast Guard juristiction. The closest I have read anywhere about them breaking any kind of regulation (and I researched this for two days before I even agreed to post it so as not to look like an ass) was something about the Canadian Government forbiding anyone to doccument the Seal slaughter.

Now that seems like a BS hide our dirty laundry in the closet kind of law/rule to me, and even if it were a legitimate regulation, it would only be enforcable in Canadian waters, which supposedly this took place outside of.

I suppose I should have mentioned that part in the original posting, as I can see how ND and T4L reached their position, but as I understand it, no laws were violated by the Sea Shepherd ship because of the location of the incident.

Now all that said, I don't want to give you guys the idea that I am a card carrying member of Greenpeace or Sea Shepherd, I tend to agree with them in principle but not in practice, as I do tend to think that their tactics are generally out of line. I am not trying to come down on the Canadian Coast Guard or come down on Sea Shepherd, and that is where I came to my position that both Captains were at fault and frankly stupid for risking vessel and crew by not backing down and not doing all they could to avoid a collision. My initial point was just to open a discussion on the topic, and maybe get enough feedback to all the proper channels to get everyone involved to pay a little more attention to maratime safety.
 
Old 03-31-2008, 04:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortech View Post
Dude, are you serious?

In other news - regardless of what is right or wrong regarding marine life harvesting - this isn't the first time these guys have pulled illegal and harassing stunts.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew..._name=&no_ads=

http://www.hdrjapan.com/japan/japan-...rotten-butter/

The Coast Guard were keeping close watch on these guys as they regularly harass, vandalize, and endanger fisher persons who chose this career path. I'm not condemning the actions of either Captain, but the Sea Shepard Society has been well known to operate ships in and around other fleets without due care and attention.

EDIT: Spelling and addition of links
Agreed, that while the ideals of groups like Sea Shepherd are fairly noble, their tactics are often not. However, it appears that the Canadian Coast Guard has also behaved poorly in the past as well. This article from 2005 details another near miss between the Sea Shepherd vessel and a Coast Guard icebreaker.

"Coast Guard vessel Amundsen "approached at high speed, running down seals in the ice. The icebreaker came straight towards the starboard bow of the Farley Mowat on a collision course," said Watson. "The Farley Mowat had to do a full reverse to avoid the collision."

Again not pointing fingers, and we all know that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
 
Old 03-31-2008, 04:30 PM   #11
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All I'm saying is if law enforcement tells me to stop, I'm gonna do it, wether I did anything wrong or not. Just the fact that they tell me to stop, means they're gonna take action if I don't. Doesn't matter if I'm in my grandmother's goldfish pond or the middle of the Pacific. IMO, the Sea Shepherd was at fault. On a side note, I don't know squat about maratime laws and I'm not necessarily condoning the particular action of the Coast Guard, but show a little respect for authority.
 
Old 03-31-2008, 04:56 PM   #12
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Can't we all just get along ? I'm pretty much against slaughter, I personally don't own anything made of seal, although I do wear leather and eat beef. I guess that makes me a hypocrite, I'll have to live with that. I also don't like hearing a military sect ramming ships with ships, where's the decorum ? I feel that there needs to be a balance somewhere, the answer lies out there.
 
Old 03-31-2008, 05:06 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by concrete jedi View Post
Can't we all just get along ? I'm pretty much against slaughter, I personally don't own anything made of seal, although I do wear leather and eat beef. I guess that makes me a hypocrite, I'll have to live with that. I also don't like hearing a military sect ramming ships with ships, where's the decorum ? I feel that there needs to be a balance somewhere, the answer lies out there.
Without having been there, all any of us can do is form an opinion. Which I have done. I don't condone meaningless slaughter of any animal, but I eat meat, I wear leather, I have no use for dead seals. Why are thay being killed? Is it for food? Sport? Too many unknowns.........
 
Old 03-31-2008, 05:14 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Toy4Life View Post
Without having been there, all any of us can do is form an opinion. Which I have done. I don't condone meaningless slaughter of any animal, but I eat meat, I wear leather, I have no use for dead seals. Why are thay being killed? Is it for food? Sport? Too many unknowns.........
Couldn't say it better myself, let's the both of us go up there a straighten those boys out, a little wall to wall counceling, bring 'um in the room and let them see the light. he he
 
Old 03-31-2008, 06:38 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by maverick491 View Post
Again, this is only what I have heard from a freind of mine who is involved with Sea Shepherd, but as I understand it the Sea Shepherd vessel was not breaking any law. They were outside of the 12 mile off-shore mark which makes them in international waters, therefor outside of Canadian Coast Guard juristiction.
WRONG

Canada has enforcement jurisdiction that extends 200 miles from any point of land. I believe it was established by the United Nations in 1977.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundlan...tal-shelf.html

Due to the controversy this harvest generates, the Federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) allow observation of the hunt by permit only (stating observers must also honor a 10 meter proximity barrier from all sealers and vessels). Since the hunt is carried out within Canada's Jurisdiction, and permits are required for observation, I would think the Sea Shepard Society should have adhered to the Coast Guards requests.

Seals are harvested for food, for their fat, and for their hides which are used worldwide. Similar to cattle farmers, these fisherman have relied on this industry for generations to provide income for their families.
 
Old 04-01-2008, 12:55 PM   #16
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i have no problem with harvesting of any kind. every animal kills something in order to survive, its nothing new. what bothers me is people that have a problem with the seal thing, but still eat beef and chicken. those animals are treated much worse than seals. as long as there are regulations in place to keep from negatively impacting the environment or hunting a species to extinction (or close to it) then its no big deal, just nature taking its course
 
Old 04-01-2008, 03:47 PM   #17
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I've kinda stayed out of this but have enjoyed the respectful debate....good job guys.What I know about the Seal harvest could fit on the head of a pin,but I do know that there is three sides to every story...1.One side,2.The other side and 3.The true side.

My thought however is that the Agency that is responsible for the law enforcement and safety of our Seagoing community would hardly intentionally jeopardize the lives and property of any individuals.

Our new member Fortech,(Welcome btw) has provided us with some pretty interesting facts on how business is conducted pertaining to Maritime law...thanks for that.
 
Old 04-01-2008, 03:57 PM   #18
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I have to say, if a civilian vessel is told to stop by the coast guard/military vessel, it is advisable to do so. Yes, the two crafts should have never touched. If it was my guys, I would have told them to put a shot across the bow. Thats just me.

I do not like fundamentalist crazy tree hugger nutjobs chaining themselves to tree's, or jumping in a boat - and trying to get between someone and their job. Not the way to get something accomplished.

Not for or against sealing, or any of that, but if you are against it, there are legal ways to protest that, and legal ways to try and change things.
 
Old 04-01-2008, 05:32 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by squad314 View Post

Our new member Fortech,(Welcome btw) has provided us with some pretty interesting facts on how business is conducted pertaining to Maritime law...thanks for that.
Thanks for the kind welcome! If you guys haven't figured it out already, I hail from Eastern Canada where the hunt unfolds. I have never participated in the hunt, nor has any of my immediate family or friends. I do have a number of acquaintances who have participated at one time or another, and can tell you they are honest, everyday folk. As with every industry, 99% of the population adhere to Industry Standards and Civil Law. The other 1% however are the ones who make the evening news and front page headlines. Unfortunately, most of these Environmental groups use the 1% group of bad apples in 99% of their ad campaigns - not a representative or accurate sample of the population at all.

As was mentioned in the previous post, there are three sides to every story. I'm neutral to the whole debate but I do like to exercise my patriotism (as I'm sure most do), every chance I get. Some of their arguments hold merit, but the majority of them are falsehoods and media propaganda.

Thanks again for the welcome!
 
Old 04-02-2008, 07:25 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squad314 View Post
I've kinda stayed out of this but have enjoyed the respectful debate....good job guys.What I know about the Seal harvest could fit on the head of a pin,but I do know that there is three sides to every story...1.One side,2.The other side and 3.The true side.

My thought however is that the Agency that is responsible for the law enforcement and safety of our Seagoing community would hardly intentionally jeopardize the lives and property of any individuals.

Our new member Fortech,(Welcome btw) has provided us with some pretty interesting facts on how business is conducted pertaining to Maritime law...thanks for that.
good point. i agree completey with the 3 sides to the story thing. personally i dont believe what the Shepards are saying, nor do i completely believe the coast guard report. the truth is somewhere inbetween.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coreyjon View Post
I do not like fundamentalist crazy tree hugger nutjobs chaining themselves to tree's, or jumping in a boat - and trying to get between someone and their job. Not the way to get something accomplished.

Not for or against sealing, or any of that, but if you are against it, there are legal ways to protest that, and legal ways to try and change things.
i dont like fundamentalist anything, whethers its tree huggers, or pro-life debators, fundamentalist muslims or funamentalist christians. typically no matter how noble (or crazy) a fundamentalists goals are, they almsot always go about it in the wrong way. take pro-lifers for example. The idea of not killing babies is a pretty good one. But blowing up abortion clinics is rediculous. So is standing down the street from a school in a line holdng big signs of aborted fetus's and pushing strollers with dolls covered in fake blood (yes i have seen both of those tactics locally). personally i try not to think about my stance on abortion cause its a tough subject. but even if i did agree with the pro-lifers, there is no way i could agree with these extreme tactics. it makes them look like the badguys and their argument looses all validity due to the fact taht they all are acting insane. same thing with the seal people. personally i dont care about the seals. but if you do, then tahts fine, its good to feel strongly about something and have a stance. But go about it in the right way. if you act like a fanatic or jeapordize (sp) lives, or make it harder for people to earn a living, you're just gonna end up looking bad and in doing so you're whole argument is null and void. people with a cause dont bother me, people that pursue that cause no matter what the consequence do bother me.
 
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