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DIY: Secondary Air Filter Removal

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Old 09-26-2013, 06:18 PM   #601
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OK, first off I have not read all of the replies to this "mod", but the fact that Toyota would put a "permanent" secondary air filter in place, not matter how small is CRAZY. All that I can say is that Toyota is going totally PC in their offerings. It is amazing how they scrimp in some areas and then overkill in other areas (like this). I guess if one area is required by the Fed/State govt. to be installed, they have to save money somewhere...
BTW, I live in CA and will still do this mod and just make sure to leave room for new rivets or screws to reinstall before sale if required.
Thanks for the heads up.
Ken
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:03 PM   #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keninsb View Post
OK, first off I have not read all of the replies to this "mod", but the fact that Toyota would put a "permanent" secondary air filter in place, not matter how small is CRAZY. All that I can say is that Toyota is going totally PC in their offerings. It is amazing how they scrimp in some areas and then overkill in other areas (like this). I guess if one area is required by the Fed/State govt. to be installed, they have to save money somewhere...
BTW, I live in CA and will still do this mod and just make sure to leave room for new rivets or screws to reinstall before sale if required.
Thanks for the heads up.
Ken
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
It's not a filter, so it won't go bad.

It is a sack of activated charcoal pellets and it captures fuel vapors that come back out of the throttle body after the engine is shut down.
When the engine is restarted, the fresh air pulls the captured hydrocarbons from the charcoal.

As long as the air filter is changed regularly and not replaced with an oiled element, the secondary mesh will last the life of three Tacomas, just like the charcoal canister in the evaporative control system on the fuel tank.
There's your answer to why it's not crazy.

PC? or just following regulations.
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:16 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by worthywads View Post
There's your answer to why it's not crazy.

PC? or just following regulations.
Wait a minute, this is a "screen" that is the same size as the air filter, but sits between the air filter and the throttle body, right? If that is the case, there is NO way this is a "permanent" filter. They used to use charcoal "canisters" for this purpose in vehicle and I can see them being promoted as "permanent", but not that flimsy charcoal air filter. No matter what, it can still get clogged enough to restrict airflow. It just seems like a really lame "permanent filter" if I am reading this correctly.
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Old 09-26-2013, 07:26 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by keninsb View Post
Wait a minute, this is a "screen" that is the same size as the air filter, but sits between the air filter and the throttle body, right? If that is the case, there is NO way this is a "permanent" filter. They used to use charcoal "canisters" for this purpose in vehicle and I can see them being promoted as "permanent", but not that flimsy charcoal air filter. No matter what, it can still get clogged enough to restrict airflow. It just seems like a really lame "permanent filter" if I am reading this correctly.
Ken
Charcoal canister is for fuel vapor from your gas tank and we still have those also, this carbon filter is just for what can vent from the intake after shut off.

My air filter makes sure the carbon filter doesn't get clogged, so yes it is permanent and actually pretty porous since carbon filtration doesn't need to be restrictive.
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Old 09-26-2013, 09:44 PM   #605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keninsb View Post
OK, first off I have not read all of the replies to this "mod", but the fact that Toyota would put a "permanent" secondary air filter in place,
It is not a filter.
It does not get dirty (unless your filter is bad or you've installed an oiled air filter).
It is simply a mesh that contains activated charcoal pellets that absorb any hydrocarbons that backflow from the intake manifold after engine shutdown.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:58 AM   #606
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OK, got a better idea of the purpose of the "filter", thanks guys.

I realize that whatever is fouling the mesh has to first make it through the filter or backflow from the manifold, but it still seems like the charcoal mesh thingy could still limit airflow, no?
I know this is off topic, but regarding the charcoal canister, does it recover from the top of the fuel tank or is it from the overflow tube where you fill the tank?
Please excuse my ignorance
Thanks again,
Ken
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Old 09-27-2013, 03:05 PM   #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keninsb View Post
I realize that whatever is fouling the mesh has to first make it through the filter or backflow from the manifold, but it still seems like the charcoal mesh thingy could still limit airflow, no?
Insignificant... as supported by the lack of change in MPG or power observed by those who have removed it (including myself).
Hold it up to your face and blow through it... it's like blowing through a window screen.
Quote:
I know this is off topic, but regarding the charcoal canister, does it recover from the top of the fuel tank or is it from the overflow tube where you fill the tank?
Top of the filler neck... there is no overflow tube. If you "top off" your tank and run fuel all the way to the top of the neck, it will flood the canister, resulting in a CEL, running rich as the system attempts to purge the now-damaged canister, and the need to replace the canister (above the rear of the tank, not easy to get to).
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Old 09-27-2013, 05:38 PM   #608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
Insignificant... as supported by the lack of change in MPG or power observed by those who have removed it (including myself).
Hold it up to your face and blow through it... it's like blowing through a window screen.
10-4. Gotcha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
Top of the filler neck... there is no overflow tube. If you "top off" your tank and run fuel all the way to the top of the neck, it will flood the canister, resulting in a CEL, running rich as the system attempts to purge the now-damaged canister, and the need to replace the canister (above the rear of the tank, not easy to get to).
THAT is what I was thinking of. Seems kind of lame that they even bother with the charcoal canister. I used to work at a company called "Vetronix" (since purchased by Bosche) that made the scan-tools for Toyota, Lexus, Nissan, Acura, GM and other manufacturers) and we had a guy that was an ex-Master Mechanic. Anyway, we were talking about the charcoal canister and it seems to be a waste, like a "1-shot deal". If you overfill the tank ONE time, it ruins the charcoal (it can only absorb so much of anything). guess it is the last leg of the coal industry (thanks mr. president).
Ken
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Old 09-27-2013, 05:45 PM   #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keninsb View Post
THAT is what I was thinking of. Seems kind of lame that they even bother with the charcoal canister. I used to work at a company called "Vetronix" (since purchased by Bosche) that made the scan-tools for Toyota, Lexus, Nissan, Acura, GM and other manufacturers) and we had a guy that was an ex-Master Mechanic. Anyway, we were talking about the charcoal canister and it seems to be a waste, like a "1-shot deal". If you overfill the tank ONE time, it ruins the charcoal (it can only absorb so much of anything). guess it is the last leg of the coal industry (thanks mr. president).
Ken
The purpose of the canister is not to absorb excess fuel. It is not an overflow pipe, and the canister is not there to capture "overflow" fuel.

The canister is working constantly. Like the screen in the air filter housing, it captures fuel vapors exiting the tank vent and prevents them from being released into the atmosphere.
When the engine is started, the ECU opens the purge valve and air is drawn into the intake manifold through the canister. This pulls the captured vapors into the engine.

If your fuel cap is not installed properly, you will get a CEL with a Evap system code... the system is a "closed" system, but since the tank can not be completely sealed unless it were a bladder, the charcoal canister is the filter isolating the fuel in the tank from the outside air.

And activated charcoal is not coal... it has nothing to do with the coal industry. It is more closely related to what you stoke your BBQ with.
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:05 PM   #610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
The purpose of the canister is not to absorb excess fuel. It is not an overflow pipe, and the canister is not there to capture "overflow" fuel.

The canister is working constantly. Like the screen in the air filter housing, it captures fuel vapors exiting the tank vent and prevents them from being released into the atmosphere.
When the engine is started, the ECU opens the purge valve and air is drawn into the intake manifold through the canister. This pulls the captured vapors into the engine.

If your fuel cap is not installed properly, you will get a CEL with a Evap system code... the system is a "closed" system, but since the tank can not be completely sealed unless it were a bladder, the charcoal canister is the filter isolating the fuel in the tank from the outside air.

And activated charcoal is not coal... it has nothing to do with the coal industry. It is more closely related to what you stoke your BBQ with.
OK, but what if you do overflow. Doesn't it go into the canister?
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:16 PM   #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keninsb View Post
Anyway, we were talking about the charcoal canister and it seems to be a waste, like a "1-shot deal". If you overfill the tank ONE time, it ruins the charcoal (it can only absorb so much of anything). guess it is the last leg of the coal industry (thanks mr. president).
Ken

You really have to struggle to overfill your gas tank to the point of damaging your charcoal filter. Fill until it shuts off, and click 2-3 more times and you aren't even close to ruining the canister.

The purpose is to eliminate gas vapors from continually venting to the atmosphere like pre 1972 vehicles. Hardly a waste, and actually conservation of what was wasted gasoline.

You seem to jump to conclusions that are way off base. Which president since 1972 when closed gas tank systems where mandated are you referring to?
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Old 09-27-2013, 06:44 PM   #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worthywads View Post
You really have to struggle to overfill your gas tank to the point of damaging your charcoal filter. Fill until it shuts off, and click 2-3 more times and you aren't even close to ruining the canister.

The purpose is to eliminate gas vapors from continually venting to the atmosphere like pre 1972 vehicles. Hardly a waste, and actually conservation of what was wasted gasoline.

You seem to jump to conclusions that are way off base. Which president since 1972 when closed gas tank systems where mandated are you referring to?

Sorry guys, I come from a state where they tried to outlaw owning Goldfish was a crime and now they are proposing rearview cameras as required by law. Sorry, in my view there are just too damn many laws/restrictions. Period.
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:23 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by keninsb View Post
Sorry guys, I come from a state where they tried to outlaw owning Goldfish was a crime and now they are proposing rearview cameras as required by law. Sorry, in my view there are just too damn many laws/restrictions. Period.
Seems that is screwing up your judgment, and distorting your ability to understand basic ideas.

I'm Libertarian, but obviously there is no way auto manufacturers would have reduced emissions without laws, we live in a much cleaner environment with regulations, the free market fails at market signals to force reduction of pollution.

Just let them try to ban aluminum foil for hat making though.
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:27 PM   #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worthywads View Post
You really have to struggle to overfill your gas tank to the point of damaging your charcoal filter. Fill until it shuts off, and click 2-3 more times and you aren't even close to ruining the canister.

The purpose is to eliminate gas vapors from continually venting to the atmosphere like pre 1972 vehicles. Hardly a waste, and actually conservation of what was wasted gasoline.

You seem to jump to conclusions that are way off base. Which president since 1972 when closed gas tank systems where mandated are you referring to?
My '69 Buick and '67 Chevelle had charcoal canisters. One looked like a cartoon bomb (round plastic) and one looked like a 1lb coffee can.
Emissions controls started in 1963 (under Kennedy).
Nixon formed the EPA.
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:29 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by keninsb View Post
now they are proposing rearview cameras as required by law.
That's not California... that is Federal.
Just like the TPMS, airbags, 3rd brake light, etc....
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Old 09-27-2013, 07:46 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
My '69 Buick and '67 Chevelle had charcoal canisters. One looked like a cartoon bomb (round plastic) and one looked like a 1lb coffee can.
Emissions controls started in 1963 (under Kennedy).
Nixon formed the EPA.
Closed tanks weren't national until '72, my '70 Challenger has an open tank with nothing more than a tube that runs down toward the ground. CA lead the way.
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:11 PM   #617
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Originally Posted by worthywads View Post
Closed tanks weren't national until '72, my '70 Challenger has an open tank with nothing more than a tube that runs down toward the ground. CA lead the way.
My '69 Camaro was like that, I figured it was an owner mod.

The Buick did have a couple of hoses routed into the wheelwell with dust caps on them (one of them leaked fuel if the tank was full when parked on an angle), but it did have a canister.

Other than that, they had PCV and the breather routed to the air filter housing. The Chevelle had an A.I.R. pump, the '69 models didn't have it.
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:59 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by Rich91710 View Post
My '69 Camaro was like that, I figured it was an owner mod.

The Buick did have a couple of hoses routed into the wheelwell with dust caps on them (one of them leaked fuel if the tank was full when parked on an angle), but it did have a canister.

Other than that, they had PCV and the breather routed to the air filter housing. The Chevelle had an A.I.R. pump, the '69 models didn't have it.
Were these all CA cars?
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:27 PM   #619
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Were these all CA cars?
Not sure where the Camaro was "born"... and it had been gutted and turned into a race car before I bought it. Didn't even have a heater.

The Buick was bought used in '72, it had been a company car prior (lease return), and the Chevelle was bought new in CA.

The smog pump came, went, and came again. I'm not sure about '68, but all '67 had them, and no '69 had them. It came back in '70 or '71.
Dad's '74 K5 Blazer had one (but no cat).
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Old 09-28-2013, 05:40 PM   #620
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keninsb is one of the sharper tools in the shedkeninsb is one of the sharper tools in the shedkeninsb is one of the sharper tools in the shedkeninsb is one of the sharper tools in the shedkeninsb is one of the sharper tools in the shedkeninsb is one of the sharper tools in the shedkeninsb is one of the sharper tools in the shedkeninsb is one of the sharper tools in the shedkeninsb is one of the sharper tools in the shedkeninsb is one of the sharper tools in the shedkeninsb is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
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Name: Ken
Joined: Jul 2013, #108728
Location: Goleta, CA
Age: 50
Gender: Guy
Posts: 719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worthywads View Post
Seems that is screwing up your judgment, and distorting your ability to understand basic ideas.

I'm Libertarian, but obviously there is no way auto manufacturers would have reduced emissions without laws, we live in a much cleaner environment with regulations, the free market fails at market signals to force reduction of pollution.

Just let them try to ban aluminum foil for hat making though.
Amen! Oh wait, I might get fined for saying that. This isn't a Fed/State run site is it?
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