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-   -   Forced Induction Mods- What's next? (http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/performance-tuning/280590-forced-induction-mods-whats-next.html)

trailhoor 06-02-2013 09:09 PM

Forced Induction Mods- What's next?
 
2 Attachment(s)
So I've been injured for months (if you break your scaphoid, get the screw) and coping by working on my truck. Last month I replaced my Icons with Kings:D. This month I'm working on my engine:

2008 4.0L 6-sp Manual
TRD S/C, no ECU re-flash
APR X-1, cam gears, t-stat, Tta40.03A.F3_425.01.AprCal
Doug Thorley L/T headers
AFE Stage II CAI
URD 2.825" pulley

Dyno'ed the truck before a map change and smaller pulley on a 4-wheel dyno @ 6,300' elevation: 190 wHp, 246ft-lb (I know, sounds low to me too). I've been working with David at APR and there might be some improvements still to be had on the engine management. I'm curious about the 7th injector. Does anyone have experience with the 7th injector on a supercharged 4.0L? The extra injector would probably warrant a Walbro 255 fuel pump kit from URD. It seems like adding some fuel before the roots would really help cool the intake charge, increase efficiency and ultimately increase power?

I installed the URD pulley last week and that made a nice improvement I could feel. Don't get me wrong, the truck drives great. Just wondering what other engine mods I should do that won't cost too much at this point. The wife is getting sick of my truck, ha hah.

Torspd 06-03-2013 03:05 AM

You need to get a fuel pump upgrade. Before all else. Either from Dezod, or URD. If you are driving around at 6300' regularly, you won't need the 7th. You don't have enough air density as it is up there to warrant it, really, compared to a similar truck at sea level.

trailhoor 06-03-2013 08:17 AM

I don't just stay at this elevation and want my truck to run safe and strong at lower elevations too. I'm still looking for feedback on the 7th injector.

Does the Walbro fuel pump add any performance like better throttle response? Or is it just giving more flow for full throttle, high rpms and keeping the AFR safe? I plan to do the fuel pump next.

And the tech at APR looked at my 2nd gear, full throttle pull and thought my s/c belt was slipping @ 3,800rpms based on the Air Mass graph. This was before I installed the URD pulley. I did another pull after installing the pulley and still see small sinusoidal fluctuations in the data. Is anyone doing anything about belt slippage? My tensioner appeared fine. I did install a new belt last week. Gadget also touts his pulley has reducing slippage..

Torspd 06-03-2013 08:34 AM

The pump feeds the injectors. Fuel pressure regulator maintains the pressure of the flow, no matter what size pump you have. The injectors take what fuel they need to feed the engine. Effectively, properly maintaining flow at high RPM, where a smaller pump would drop off, and not be able to maintain the necessary volume of flow.

The pump will not change how the vehicle responds. Only make sure that the injectors have enough fuel to maintain proper AFRs.

The 7th will definitively keep charge air temps cooler. The X-1 will control it and turn it on based off of certain parameters. Quite beneficial for those running higher than stock boost, hotter climates, and near sea level. Hp lost the charge air becoming heat saturated, can be regained. As well, it supplements the tiny aftercooler by helping cool.

You can also invest in a larger heat exchanger.

You should also ask if he has any of his custom fuel rails left. That will hold much more volume of fuel.

JaRobTaco 06-03-2013 08:45 AM

why do you think you need to upgrade the fuel pump? What is your fuel pump and injectors duty cycle and air fuel ratio? that will tell you what you need? If it's under 85% it would be a waist. 255 is a good bit of fuel pump for that size motor. I have been 6.80's in the 8th in a Mustang with daylight under the the tires with that pump. I run 3 255's in my Lightning.

JaRobTaco 06-03-2013 08:53 AM

also I would run meth / water injection before I would run fuel to the blower. I spray 2 number 10 nozzles on my Lightning. 1 pre blower and 1 post blowershooting right across the I/C. My IAT2 temps are below 100 when I cross the line. I throw in another 2 deg of timing from the added octane also.

Torspd 06-03-2013 09:07 AM

The OEM '05+ Tacoma pump has been proven to fall short of supplying fuel at high RPMs, at sea level, with the TRD injectors and the 2.85" pulley. Just to small.

trailhoor 06-03-2013 09:10 AM

I believe I need a higher volume fuel pump based on recommendations I've read and advice on this site and others, Gadget. I need to look closer at my data and see how my AFR and injector duty cycle are- thanks for that. But, the data I'm taking is at over 6,000'. It does make some intuitive sense that a fuel pump could be wise. But I certainly understand what you're saying. Again, I want my truck to run strong and safe at all elevations.

APR was not a fan of meth inj because adding water yields less air. I have not looked into meth vs. a 7th. My truck is running pretty strong. It feels like the ECU is still learning and every day (since new map, ECU reset & pulley) I drive it, the engine is pulling harder. Does that make sense?

Maybe I don't need any more engine mods. I just thought if there was 50 ponies to be had by adding a 7th then..

What is 'my Lightning?'

JaRobTaco 06-03-2013 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torspd (Post 6976403)
The OEM '05+ Tacoma pump has been proven to fall short of supplying fuel at high RPMs, at sea level, with the TRD injectors and the 2.85" pulley. Just to small.

gotcha, what size fuel pump and what pound injectors do the Tacoma's come with?

Torspd 06-03-2013 09:21 AM

I believe pre-boost they are 295cc injectors. Roughly 30lb injectors, without doing the math. Not sure the flow rate of the pump. But for comparison sake, it was about the same physical size as the pump for my N/A Subaru. Tiny. Interesting note, the pump in the 1GR 4Runner is larger than the Tacoma, but smaller than the 255lph. Probably due to two engine sizes being available in that platform.

TRD injectors are 410cc's I believe. But due to coding in the X-1 they are labled at 425's. Someone else might be able to clarify on that.

ToyotaTacoma4Ever 06-03-2013 09:53 AM

The TRD injectors are 425cc there Torspd or else my injector duty cycle would be pretty high if they were 410cc lol

Torspd 06-03-2013 02:28 PM

Thank you sir. :thumbsup:

trailhoor 06-03-2013 02:44 PM

Fuel pump is ordered from URD. So the 7th with my setup is not really going to do much for me? Any other low haging fruit to be had? Any tuning tips on the X-1 or thoughts on a custom APR engine map? The F3 map is way better than what I had last week..

I appreciate the help guys- your rigs look rediculous!

ToyotaTacoma4Ever 06-03-2013 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trailhoor (Post 6977879)
Fuel pump is ordered from URD. So the 7th with my setup is not really going to do much for me? Any other low haging fruit to be had? Any tuning tips on the X-1 or thoughts on a custom APR engine map? The F3 map is way better than what I had last week..

I appreciate the help guys- your rigs look rediculous!

Just gotta ask, even thought your at 6300 ft above sea level your only makin 190 HP at the wheels, supercharged with the X-1 and with the 2.8 pulley!? No kidding it sure seems low! Is the elevation take that much of a toll on horsepower??

trailhoor 06-04-2013 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToyotaTacoma4Ever (Post 6978531)
Just gotta ask, even thought your at 6300 ft above sea level your only makin 190 HP at the wheels, supercharged with the X-1 and with the 2.8 pulley!? No kidding it sure seems low! Is the elevation take that much of a toll on horsepower??

The Dyno on my truck was before the map change and smaller pulley. The Dyno Dynamics measured a loaded torque without correction factors @ 6,300'. I estimate an equivalent Dynojet would be 230wDJHp. A ballpark guess at an elevation correction yields 280wDJHp. I would guess the pulley and new map have added 20-30Hp. So, I'm getting closer to what one would expect with these mods at sea level on a Dynojet. And Obviously these are estimates.

JaRobTaco 06-04-2013 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trailhoor (Post 6976407)
I believe I need a higher volume fuel pump based on recommendations I've read and advice on this site and others, Gadget. I need to look closer at my data and see how my AFR and injector duty cycle are- thanks for that. But, the data I'm taking is at over 6,000'. It does make some intuitive sense that a fuel pump could be wise. But I certainly understand what you're saying. Again, I want my truck to run strong and safe at all elevations.

APR was not a fan of meth inj because adding water yields less air. I have not looked into meth vs. a 7th. My truck is running pretty strong. It feels like the ECU is still learning and every day (since new map, ECU reset & pulley) I drive it, the engine is pulling harder. Does that make sense?

Maybe I don't need any more engine mods. I just thought if there was 50 ponies to be had by adding a 7th then..

What is 'my Lightning?'

Ford Lightning.

I have built nitrous, centrifical, roots, twin screw, and turbo cars and never thought much about meth. I did a ton of research and desided to try it. I kick myself in the a$$ for not trying it years before. Fuel will never come close to the cooling affects or safety of water/meth. Plus the extra octane of the meth. I am pushing over 700hp and 810lbft with big 2.6L H.O. Kenne Bell on my Lightning and am able to do it on 93 oct. on w/m. I run a 7 gal tank in the bed and it lasts forever. That beast crosses the line and the charge temps are below 100 deg.

Torspd 06-04-2013 09:30 AM

I agree. Very handy. Especially when used properly. Just have to be careful with the mixture, as it is corrosive in nature. Too much and it will eat the coating off of the lobes of the rotors in the S/C.

Cheaper than fuel, cools far superior to fuel, and will increase hp. Whether by cooling the charge temp, which mean more dense air, or by also adding additional timing.

Me personally, I like to be on the safe side and only plan to use it to keep charge temps down and aid in knock prevention.

JaRobTaco 06-04-2013 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torspd (Post 6981643)
I agree. Very handy. Especially when used properly. Just have to be careful with the mixture, as it is corrosive in nature. Too much and it will eat the coating off of the lobes of the rotors in the S/C.

Cheaper than fuel, cools far superior to fuel, and will increase hp. Whether by cooling the charge temp, which mean more dense air, or by also adding additional timing.

Me personally, I like to be on the safe side and only plan to use it to keep charge temps down and aid in knock prevention.

It is corrosive if you took your rotors and submerged them in pure meth for a few weeks. Mixing it 50/50 with water and spraying through a jet where it is atomized into a hot blower at wide open throttle, it doesn't even stay in the blower long enough for any damage whatsoever. Kenne Bell, Whipple and several other companies recommend spraying through the blower.

And also it closes up rotor tolerances for a couple more free psi of boost. And steam cleans the blower and engine where it will always look brand new on the inside.

colby8100 06-04-2013 11:09 AM

I tested water/meth with the same tune on 93 to see if I could get any gains without retuning and I produced 3 passes at .3 sec faster. I thought that was pretty cool considering a lot of people use it to suppress detonation so they can add more timing or boost or lean-ness. So to get a gain was pretty cool

trailhoor 06-05-2013 09:57 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I talked to APR about the location of my vacuum line from the fuel pressure reg to the s/c (known as FPR mod on TW). He informed me this mod was actually not helping the ECU at all and creating a scenario of a dog chasing his tail. I will be reconnecting my vacuum line back to the intake.


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