Mike "Wuzzy121". Rest in peace, brother

Go Back   Tacoma World Forums > Tacoma Garage > Technical Chat

Notices

How air goes thru your engine.....(basic)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-03-2009, 09:40 AM   #21
My hair is all natural
lsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
lsocoee's Avatar
Name: Hotdog
Joined: Feb 2007, #872
Posts: 10,095
lsocoee's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris4x4 View Post
It is important if the air is turbulent or not. The intake runners are designed to straigten the air flow as much as possible before going into the combustion chamber. A laminar flow will more efficiently fill the combustion chamber than a turbulent flow.
I'm doing a little bit of research now. At the moment, I think the runners are designed primarily to accommodate the air flow bounce back that occurs when the intake valve closes. I'm always open to being wrong(I did agree to get married) If you have any sources, I would love to read them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris4x4 View Post
In the old days of carburation, turbulence was a goodthing, as it helped to atomize the fuel. Now, with Fuel Injection, a laminar flow is best, and is what the manufatures strive for.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris4x4 View Post
Yes...the turbo IS, in fact, the unltimate "scavenger". And I have pointed out that a turbo does have a parasitic drag on the engine in the form of an exhaust blockage. However, Scavenging is what I described in the first post.
I know you know, I just thought it was a good thing to point out the difference in the air flows through a S/C vs. T/C engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 98tacoma27 View Post
I still think this has some validity

Seems like a good idea to me...

Actually, most manufacturers do that, just not to that extent. Look up the EGR valve.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 09:53 AM   #22
chris4x4 [OP] chris4x4 is offline
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
chris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
chris4x4's Avatar
Name: FlimFlubberJAM
Joined: May 2008, #6497
Location: Tenoe, AZ
Gender: Male
Posts: 98,332
chris4x4's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsocoee View Post
I'm doing a little bit of research now. At the moment, I think the runners are designed primarily to accommodate the air flow bounce back that occurs when the intake valve closes.
They are for that. BUT, if the air flow is turbulant, the pulses wont be able to be as easily tuned, if at all. One of the reasons manufactures have switched from cast aluminum intake manifolds to injection molded plastic ones (other than it IS less expensive), is that the runners can be made smoother, creating less turbulence. if you look closely at the bends in a modern intake, you will see that they are a little flatter than the straight parts of the intake. This is to avoid the tubulence formed when air goes around a turn. The air tward the "out side", if you will, of the bend is going to accelerate faster than the air tward the inside of the bend, thus causeing turbulence in the stream. By flattening it, all the air (more or less) maintains the same velocity. This same thing can be used in the exhaust, as bends in the pipe cause turbulence, and slow down the exhaust gasses. Seems only 1 company has done this with FANTASTIC results, but there is a patent on it. http://www.micronexhaust.com/store/prodserpent.htm
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 09:54 AM   #23
Mustache May
MacTaco is a glorious beacon of lightMacTaco is a glorious beacon of lightMacTaco is a glorious beacon of lightMacTaco is a glorious beacon of lightMacTaco is a glorious beacon of light
 
MacTaco's Avatar
Joined: Sep 2008, #9314
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Age: 25
Gender: Dude
Posts: 558
MacTaco's Tacoma Gallery
Kinda like farting into a tube leading to your mouth.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 09:57 AM   #24
chris4x4 [OP] chris4x4 is offline
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
chris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
chris4x4's Avatar
Name: FlimFlubberJAM
Joined: May 2008, #6497
Location: Tenoe, AZ
Gender: Male
Posts: 98,332
chris4x4's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTaco View Post
Kinda like farting into a tube leading to your mouth.
Whats wrong with that?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 09:58 AM   #25
Mustache May
MacTaco is a glorious beacon of lightMacTaco is a glorious beacon of lightMacTaco is a glorious beacon of lightMacTaco is a glorious beacon of lightMacTaco is a glorious beacon of light
 
MacTaco's Avatar
Joined: Sep 2008, #9314
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Age: 25
Gender: Dude
Posts: 558
MacTaco's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris4x4 View Post
Whats wrong with that?
Oh, I never said there was anything wrong with it. haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARGOqy1WxJU

Except for that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 10:13 AM   #26
My hair is all natural
lsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
lsocoee's Avatar
Name: Hotdog
Joined: Feb 2007, #872
Posts: 10,095
lsocoee's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris4x4 View Post
They are for that. BUT, if the air flow is turbulant, the pulses wont be able to be as easily tuned, if at all. One of the reasons manufactures have switched from cast aluminum intake manifolds to injection molded plastic ones (other than it IS less expensive), is that the runners can be made smoother, creating less turbulence. if you look closely at the bends in a modern intake, you will see that they are a little flatter than the straight parts of the intake. This is to avoid the tubulence formed when air goes around a turn. The air tward the "out side", if you will, of the bend is going to accelerate faster than the air tward the inside of the bend, thus causeing turbulence in the stream. By flattening it, all the air (more or less) maintains the same velocity. This same thing can be used in the exhaust, as bends in the pipe cause turbulence, and slow down the exhaust gasses. Seems only 1 company has done this with FANTASTIC results, but there is a patent on it. http://www.micronexhaust.com/store/prodserpent.htm
I guess this all goes back to treating laminar and turbulent as absolute terms. Me saying it isn't laminar and Chris saying it is, we might be saying the same things. My definition of laminar is that there is no turbulence. I'm thinking Chris's definition is that it is mostly smooth flow. (correct?)

I understand what and why you have said about the laminar flow-that laminar flow makes the intake pulses easier to predict and calculate. I see that testing is really the only way to accurately and efficiently design an intake manifold.

I disagree that the design of intake runners is to increase laminar flow. I believe that the design of the runners is largely defined by the desired power band.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 10:14 AM   #27
My hair is all natural
lsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
lsocoee's Avatar
Name: Hotdog
Joined: Feb 2007, #872
Posts: 10,095
lsocoee's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTaco View Post
Kinda like farting into a tube leading to your mouth.
are you trying to say that you don't sniff your own farts???

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris4x4 View Post
Whats wrong with that?
yeah!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 10:16 AM   #28
:POOPCORN:
98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
98tacoma27's Avatar
Marines:
Name: Ben
Joined: Dec 2008, #11714
Location: Beech Creek
Gender: Dude
Posts: 48,255
98tacoma27's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsocoee View Post
are you trying to say that you don't sniff your own farts???



yeah!
You have to smell the "exhaust". Good indication of your tuning.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 10:19 AM   #29
Mustache May
MacTaco is a glorious beacon of lightMacTaco is a glorious beacon of lightMacTaco is a glorious beacon of lightMacTaco is a glorious beacon of lightMacTaco is a glorious beacon of light
 
MacTaco's Avatar
Joined: Sep 2008, #9314
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Age: 25
Gender: Dude
Posts: 558
MacTaco's Tacoma Gallery
Hahahahahahaha
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 10:46 AM   #30
chris4x4 [OP] chris4x4 is offline
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
chris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
chris4x4's Avatar
Name: FlimFlubberJAM
Joined: May 2008, #6497
Location: Tenoe, AZ
Gender: Male
Posts: 98,332
chris4x4's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsocoee View Post
I guess this all goes back to treating laminar and turbulent as absolute terms. Me saying it isn't laminar and Chris saying it is, we might be saying the same things. My definition of laminar is that there is no turbulence. I'm thinking Chris's definition is that it is mostly smooth flow. (correct?) .
Well.....ok. being as the air stream will never be 100% laminar.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lsocoee View Post
I disagree that the design of intake runners is to increase laminar flow. I believe that the design of the runners is largely defined by the desired power band.
Originally, yes. Not long ago, manufactures started useing them (designing) to also smooth the air flow into the combustion chamber.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 10:48 AM   #31
My hair is all natural
lsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shedlsocoee is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
lsocoee's Avatar
Name: Hotdog
Joined: Feb 2007, #872
Posts: 10,095
lsocoee's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris4x4 View Post
Originally, yes. Not long ago, manufactures started useing them (designing) to also smooth the air flow into the combustion chamber.
OK. Good to know. I concede.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 10:50 AM   #32
chris4x4 [OP] chris4x4 is offline
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
chris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
chris4x4's Avatar
Name: FlimFlubberJAM
Joined: May 2008, #6497
Location: Tenoe, AZ
Gender: Male
Posts: 98,332
chris4x4's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98tacoma27 View Post
You have to smell the "exhaust". Good indication of your tuning.
Correct! that would be your FSR (Fart Smell Ratio). Poor tuning is noticed when checking the FSR you find a bit of S (shit) comming out of the pipe when testing for the FSR. This would lead to a FS/SR (Fart Smell/Shit Ratio), in which case, changeing your diet may be in order.....or seeing a Dr.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 10:51 AM   #33
chris4x4 [OP] chris4x4 is offline
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
chris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
chris4x4's Avatar
Name: FlimFlubberJAM
Joined: May 2008, #6497
Location: Tenoe, AZ
Gender: Male
Posts: 98,332
chris4x4's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by lsocoee View Post
OK. Good to know. I concede.
Me too.. My head hurts, and I cant get ahold of any of my friends to help me out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 10:53 AM   #34
:POOPCORN:
98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed98tacoma27 is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
98tacoma27's Avatar
Marines:
Name: Ben
Joined: Dec 2008, #11714
Location: Beech Creek
Gender: Dude
Posts: 48,255
98tacoma27's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris4x4 View Post
Well.....ok. being as the air stream will never be 100% laminar.



Originally, yes. Not long ago, manufactures started useing them (designing) to also smooth the air flow into the combustion chamber.
.....making a Throttle Body Spacer (TBS) nothing more than a $40ish trinket.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 10:56 AM   #35
chris4x4 [OP] chris4x4 is offline
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
chris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
chris4x4's Avatar
Name: FlimFlubberJAM
Joined: May 2008, #6497
Location: Tenoe, AZ
Gender: Male
Posts: 98,332
chris4x4's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98tacoma27 View Post
.....making a Throttle Body Spacer (TBS) nothing more than a $40ish trinket.
Yepo! TBS does hold paper down VERY well, however.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 10:58 AM   #36
Senior Member
sonjay is just really nicesonjay is just really nicesonjay is just really nicesonjay is just really nice
 
sonjay's Avatar
Joined: Oct 2008, #9834
Location: Vancouver Island
Gender: Male
Posts: 701
sonjay's Tacoma Gallery
Great write-up chris!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2009, 10:59 AM   #37
chris4x4 [OP] chris4x4 is offline
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.
chris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shedchris4x4 is one of the sharper tools in the shed
 
chris4x4's Avatar
Name: FlimFlubberJAM
Joined: May 2008, #6497
Location: Tenoe, AZ
Gender: Male
Posts: 98,332
chris4x4's Tacoma Gallery
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonjay View Post
Great write-up chris!
Ty, Sir!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2009, 08:39 PM   #38
Avatar approved by 98tacomav6
DanGer is one of the sharper tools in the shedDanGer is one of the sharper tools in the shedDanGer is one of the sharper tools in the shedDanGer is one of the sharper tools in the shedDanGer is one of the sharper tools in the shedDanGer is one of the sharper tools in the shedDanGer is one of the sharper tools in the shedDanGer is one of the sharper tools in the shedDanGer is one of the sharper tools in the shedDanGer is one of the sharper tools in the shedDanGer is one of the sharper tools in the shed
Joined: Jun 2008, #7155
Location: Northern Virginia & Blacksburg
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,514
DanGer's Tacoma Gallery
This is the first time I have seen this. Who know iso could make a... a...intelligent post?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 04:29 AM   #39
Senior Member
XrunnIT is one of the sharper tools in the shedXrunnIT is one of the sharper tools in the shedXrunnIT is one of the sharper tools in the shedXrunnIT is one of the sharper tools in the shedXrunnIT is one of the sharper tools in the shedXrunnIT is one of the sharper tools in the shedXrunnIT is one of the sharper tools in the shedXrunnIT is one of the sharper tools in the shedXrunnIT is one of the sharper tools in the shedXrunnIT is one of the sharper tools in the shedXrunnIT is one of the sharper tools in the shed
Joined: Jul 2008, #7770
Location: Austin, TX
Age: 30
Gender: Dude
Posts: 861
XrunnIT's Tacoma Gallery
Send a message via AIM to XrunnIT
some very good points in this article. very well worded chris. I tried to give you rep.. but apparently I have to give more rep to other people before I can give some to you again.

A few others that can be added to the list, is the pulse rebound that happens after a valve shuts.

On the 05+ tacomas the air surge tank has a butterfly valve that adjusts the runner length to optimize that pulse rebound to provide optimal efficiency through the full RPM band. This is essentially the theory behind the throttle body spacer, as the throttle body will act as the rebound point on the intake, where the collector is the rebound on the exhaust end.

Then we can talk about backpressure and the importance of proper header design.

You can also dive into diameter changes, port matching, and the Bernoulli's Principle as well (purpose behind mandrel bends in exhaust).

Lots of fun stuff... doesn't everybody just love to learn about the engineering that goes into what we all assumed was just "some path to get air from outside to the motor, and the the motor back to the outside"

PS.. what happened to getting this as a sticky..
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2010, 06:10 AM   #40
Member
2003 TRD Man is on a distinguished road
 
2003 TRD Man's Avatar
Name: John
Joined: Feb 2010, #31227
Location: Edison N.J.
Gender: Male
Posts: 57
2003 TRD Man's Tacoma Gallery
Chris-- Great Write Up----U THE MAN
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Best Cold Air Intake for 2.7 engine? johnsonb1990 New Members 27 07-09-2014 08:54 AM
On board air in TRD OR engine bay anethema 2nd Gen. Tacomas 16 07-25-2012 01:43 PM
Dirty Engine Air filter Redfox1 Performance and Tuning 11 11-02-2010 09:02 PM
Ram Air on the 3.4L engine? Sheepdog 1st Gen. Tacomas 6 11-07-2009 09:51 AM


Copyright © 2014 Tacoma Forum. Tacoma World is not owned by, or affiliated with Toyota Motor Corporation.