Opinions/Experience w/ Small Form Factor (SFF) Desktop PCs?

...the newer SFF PCs (based on mini-ITX form factor) are intriguing to me in my search for a new desktop PC... I try to get several years out of my PCs, so starting w/ a good CPU/mobo setup and plenty of RAM capacity, including PCIex16 3.0 and room for a full-length, double slot graphics card... also, a decent PSU (500W?)... Given my recent habits, I don't see a need for stowing more than 2 HDDs inside the case (especially since the capacity of HDDs has increased so much of late), nor the use of extra PCI slots since so many peripherals can connect via USB (and now we have USB 3.0!)...

thus far I'm looking at offerings from the following:
- CyberpowerPC Zeus Mini
- iBuyPower Revolt
- Alienware X51
- Digital Storm Bolt

...and yes, I want a "desktop PC", ...I don't like laptops for a primary home computer, and the tablet and mini-PCs have zero modularity and capabilities...

 

hey why not build your own its easy nowadays...and fun! I heard cyberpower takes forever to build your pc and get it shipped and alienware charge too much. Not sure about the others

 

In today's world a desktop computer is a pretty poor investment for most users. (gamers are the exception to that rule) Laptop computers do everything most users need and have the flexibility to go anywhere. I have a full size keyboard and monitor setup for my laptop for those times I want that. (which lately is never)

That said if you're going to buy a small form factor desktop look for good ventilation. I've had poor luck with them in the past because they would get hot and die in what seemed like 2 days after the warranty ran out. I'm also not fond of proprietary systems for home users ie HP, Dell, Lenovo. And seriously consider a solid state hard drive for the operating system and programs. The difference is beyond huge when compared to an old school spinning hard drive. You can always pickup a couple of tera byte spinner for your movies and such.

(qualifications 30 years IT support)
Oh and I totally agree with you about tablet computers, the Microsoft surface is a train wreak, or maybe its Windows 8.

 

not a gamer, ...but i just want something w/ a hulk that will allow swapping out components in the coming years... one thing i dislike about the big-box computers (dell, etc.) is you get stuck w/ their PSUs and some OEM hardware, ..and the usual "bloatware"

i did notice that many of the manufactures i listed above have the option for liquid cooling in these SFFs...

how much power do i need... i anticipate powering a vid card, and probably 1 HDD (or even an SSD), ...not going to push it to the limit

 

I took a look at your list above and with the exception of the Alienware system they looked pretty equal. They are all using off the shelf hardware in cases designed for ventilation. From a hardware perspective I don't think you would go wrong with any of them. I don't know these vendors, so I'd read reviews before any money was spent. It was hard to tell from the Dell web site if the Alienware system is completely standard or if it was using proprietary parts. (proprietary = not good)

Being gamer machines they appear to be at the high end of performance and cost. The question becomes, is it better to buy a lower end machine for half the price and upgrade more often or buy high end and keep it? BTW there is no one correct answer to that question. Personally I've done it both ways. My last desktop was TOP of the line all the way. It lasted 7 years and I never felt like I was missing out on anything. Of course it had many upgrades in that time. The laptop that replaced it is a middle of the road computer that cost about half what I paid for the desktop. My thinking is for the same amount of money I can get two pretty good computers and stay more current with the hardware.

(Truth be told I wanted a MacBook Pro. But my current laptop cost 1/3 what they wanted for the Apple and the specs, CPU, RAM, HD were identical. My wallet said, you can have 3 laptops for the price of one Mac, why would you spend the extra money? "Because it makes me look cool at Starbucks" wasn't a good enough answer. )

 

...one thing i really don't like about the X51 is it doesn't have an integral PSU... what i do like about the cyberpower is it accepts a regular sized PSU, and i can get a Corsair, which i like... The others seem to have small form factor PSUs, ...not sure about the reliability of them... i generally try to get the CPU on the higher side of things, ...to get the most out of it and the mobo...

BTW, i'm with ya on the mac stuff, ...talk about proprietary ...and if i walk into a starbucks, i don't want to fit in

 

ok, maybe thinking about micro-ATX, ...found this case, and it's growing on me:

http://www.corsair.com/en/obsidian-series-350d-windowed-micro-atx-pc-case

 

I'm a gamer and build systems for other gamers, and have worked in IT with a spec in hardware and networking for almost 20 years.

The itty bitty form factors are essentially purpose built and not very long lasting, as a lot the parts you'd use to fix or update them are highly restricted.

If this is for home desktop use, just get an ATX that blows up your skirt and build one. The parts are cheaper, you have many more options for upgrade/fix/customization, AND they're easier to cool/overclock to boot.

Air or liquid cool? SSD or spindle drives? OS choice? How many fans? Cable management? Power and cabling? All of these are better questions to spend your time and money on.

(Hint: 500W isn't enough power for any serious rig unless you specifically AREN'T gaming, and with your specified desired GPU, 500w ain't gonna cut it.

Lemme go get you a link to mine, for instance. It's a bit old in the post, but it only cost 1100 2.5 *years* ago and you'd still have to spend twice that NOW to outperform it more than a sliver.


Here ya go mate. Like I said, it's a bit old, but the Thor 2 case is just flat-out one of the best cases I've ever worked on bar none. Big though. Incredible airflow. Nice included variable speed fan power controllers with TWO channels (one for in, one for out on mine)

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/te...happens-when-computer-geeks-decide-clean.html

 

That case looks fine for a build it yourself system Its hard to tell from pictures though. I've bought cases that looked good but once I had them in hand they were junk. So make sure you can return it.

 

i've spent some time reading reviews and forum chatter on this case... from what i gather, it's well liked and has great cooling potential and is build-friendly... only gripe people have stems from the design of the front bezels for the 5.5" drive bays, ..the "aesthetics" takes a hit if one is to put in an external 5.5" drive on the front (DVD or some such thing)..

 

....my... what big fans you have...

i see your point on ATX, but what do you think about micro-ATX, ...from what i'm seeing there is a lot of micro-ATX boards out there on the market now, and they have a lot of functionality, some even SLI or crossfire capable, multiple GPUs.... i'm not a gamer, but i will put at least one graphics card in... i just need to hook up 3 independent HD displays...

 

As I said, when you go small they don't cool as well, they short easier and are more expensive to repair/replace.

I've had...OK luck with mini and micro. But the kicker for me was always the overwhelming 'meh' performance factor.

Give you an example, albeit a slightly odd one.

Dell Optiplex 3010s. Modern day Chevy Nova workplace PCs. Very popular, I see them all over the place.

I have one client, a nonprofit law firm place down in Broward. Over the course of about 8 months they ordered 3 'lots' of PCs from Dell. All 3010s with the same specs....the director just copy/pasted and sent it off with a new PO.

First set was all full towers. Second set about three months later were mini. Third set four months later were all the new micros.

I blew the same image down on all three chassis. The full size were cooler, quieter, and 5-15% faster across the board. Same specs. Same models. Same tasks even....encoding the same vid, zipping the same doc pile, etc. We spent an afternoon just farting around with them cause we didn't believe our own results at first.

Bottlenecks suck. Cooling sucks juice. Cheaper, smaller connections to fit in itty bitty spaces heat more and transmit less. Etc etc. Smaller cooling fins that are less dense take longer to release the same heat.

I go with big cases for my rigs cause I do game, yes, but I also want maximum cooling, easy to work on, with any and all parts at my disposal. And maximum performance when I want it.

 

i would suspect the optiplex cases aren't designed well for airflow and fan mounting?.. w/ the corsair 350d case, i can put 2 x 140mm fans in the front, and i could do a water cooler for the processor, the radiator mounted on the back of the case or on the roof of the case (it has mounting for this)... would this be good?

 

That too, but also consider, for instance...

12 and 14 gauge power wires for everything. They don't heat up at all even under load. The dinky little 20-24ga wires used in SFF cases, they cheap on insulation as well as wire mats so they heat up AND dont' pass enough power once they do, PLUS add to your system heat.

The connections from the north bridge to the DIMM slots and the other way out the CPU on my board are even, have large surface areas for maximum cooling and have lots of overhead wiggle room for heat, damage, dust, and movement if needed. The ones on a SFF board are thinner, as close together as machined possible (gotta save space!) and have almost no tolerance for any of the above PLUS they heat up some even under moderate load.

Lots of restricted airflow, dead spots, and cheap construction in SFF cases. Harder to keep cool, generates more heat, and has more potential backlog spots for power / current.

Etc etc etc.

Look, I'm not saying you shouldn't get one if that's what you want. Please do. But go into it with your eyes open. There's a reason that folks building powerful rigs meant to last a while and do lots of different things go big with full sized components. This is an example of when size CAN matter. And mass. And airflow.

If you want a small, compact purpose-built rig that will be a one-shot item or, maybe one or two small incremental upgrades before a full rebuild/re-buy then go for it.

 

It *might* be good. Again, SFFs generally have the shittiest airflow and the most power-starved components and worst wiring of any machine type.

Be careful with setting up your cable management, flow channels, etc. Check them with colored smoke/incense if you can and adjust as you go. Don't be afraid to Dremel a new wire channel into something else if you can safely do so and tuck a big honkin' air blockin' cable out of the way!

 

...when you say "wiring", ...to clarify, are you talking about the PCB (motherboard) itself, or the cables coming out of the PSU (power supply)? ...the case i'm looking at accepts ATX-sized PSUs... i'll probably get a corsair HX650, like i have in my current computer...

 

I only briefly read the OP, and not the responses but I usually see small form pcs in the workplace. (Car dealers, finance departments, small governmental work, secretaries (healthcare). Probably not ideal for your use but things might have changed in the newer models if we are talking about the same style.
I could only recommend them for someone who is working a word document, reading an email and checking the news.

 

Right on with the airflow. They aren't meant to have much going on inside. I wonder if the dissipation of heat could be greatly reduced with a SSD however.

 

i'm leaning toward micro-ATX form factor now, ...probably going w/ a corsair 350d case, which seems to get good reviews for build ergonomics and cooling capacity, also room for dual GPU setup...

 

Given the broad spectrum we've talked about so far....I'd say wiring means all of the above.

The molex power feeds are. The ribbon cables for IDE or SATA are too. Also the physical connection points themselves and the overlays directly laid down on the breadboard to attach the CP and northbridge and DIMM slots.

It's also liquid tubes in liquid cooling rigs. And any other THING that carries power and / or blows airflow.

All of them are less dense, with less strength, with easier to break construction/materials, and /or less performance than their full-sized counterparts that are ALSO cheaper and more readily available.