SOLVED! Post 2853 Leaking Injectors, Dealer Techs Rock! Extended Cranking after Engine Swap 3.4L 5vz

Keakar, if you can have a 3.4 pulled out of a Tacoma in 2 hours, then get your ass down here, cause I will hire you in a flat second! I have been pulling these engines for YEARS, at it takes me a good 3.5-4 hours to get a 3.4V6 totally removed from an engine bay without cranking up a sawzall to cut crap out.

 

I'm not saying I don't see your point, but I don't think doing the swap is the win/win proposition you think it is.

The 5K won't be flushed down the drain. If she sells privately she can tell the folks it has a slight starter issue but the motor is brand new and still probably get over book value.

This all goes back to the reason why MAYBE getting something newer wouldn't be a bad idea. Something she could afford of course but at least her chances will be higher that everything under the hood will last for 5-10 more years with good maintenance.

 

ok you got me, you have more experience with these tacos then me so I yield to your time estimate of 4 hours

 

All good point, I'm sure, but realistically no one should be buying anything they can not afford to pay off in 3 years. 13 year old trucks that have stupid resale value just throws huge wrenches into the works. Banks are only going to loan out money on what the truck is valued at. These dealers that jack up the price beyond KBB are only doing that so you have to use their (dealer) financing. This is a nono for used vehicles, but a huge win for dealers. Don't play their game.

Are we still talking about the green truck with 140k miles for 9 grand? If yes, then this is a reasonable price and should be perused. That truck is a long way from needing a new engine.

I'm sure Jen can blow the dealers' mind with questions that would pertain to a first gen Tacoma.(can you where a body camera and film this?) She would hardly be going into this environment unarmed with all the info she has obtained in the last 5 months (shit! has it really been that long?)



With that said, I still want to know what the fuck is going on with the present truck. I actually unsubscribed for a bit as I was getting nothing done because of thinking about this truck's problem. I'm obviously back with this post.

What has not been changed? The only thing that I can think of, and correct me please if I'm incorrect, is the charcoal canister. I have a real hard time thinking this could cause the issue, but it does interact with the fuel injection system.

Just thinking and writing out loud here, NBI. Carry on.

KO, out



Anything else that we can think of, lets here it.

 

last I heard there was still no solution found to the hard warm start problem and she was going to call them on Monday to see if anything has changed, beyond that I don't recall any further updates were given. I believe they still had no clue what the problem was on Monday when she called or she would have said something and been asking more questions.

my perception was jen and hubby have gotten to the point of saying its time to move on with a different truck but I also don't think they have completely given up on her old truck but they have exhausted all attempts to fix it so what more can they do and at some point, enough is enough, and she is shopping for another truck.

perhaps I misunderstood things and jen will pop in to say that but that's my understanding of where we are in this at this point.

 

Good morning TW!!

Great to hear from all of you! Yeah, the thread kinda tapered off a bit there, I think we ALL needed a little mental vacation from it, especially me!

Current Taco status: tried switching igniter and MAF - no change. Was about to switch ECU mid last week, never heard anything so assuming either no change or he didn't get to it yet - I'm thinking I'll stop by tomorrow to check in/deliver cookies. Last 2 times I was there in past 2 weeks, we talked a fair amount about the circuit opening relay and wiring involved with it, and voltage to starter and pump, and I brought FSM pages regarding the top 2 culprits behind "difficult to start, hot engine" - fuel pump control circuit and starter signal circuit. He was reading over the pages and eating ginger cookies when I left there last week. I think a COR was heading my way to try swapping. Mechanic's best clue throughout has been noid lights stay dim upon start up during excessive crank times, whereas they are bright instantly when it starts up normally. Both the last mechanic that went to Florida and this mechanic believe something is not getting enough fuel to injectors during excessive cranking, and suspect wiring or ECU.

This mechanic is a good friend of our neighbor, and also a super nice guy, who seems like he knows what he's doing. But he's having to push other vehicles ahead of our truck's diagnosis when they're busy, because he's trying to keep our labor costs down by "fitting it in" where he can. That said, every time I've stopped by there, he's got it pulled into a bay, hood up, fuel gauge hooked up, noid lights hooked up, wiring in the dash/to the ECU all opened up, panels concealing COR and other wiring under steering wheel opened up, the FSM we gave him opened up to pages about electrical stuff, all of my Michigan parts in boxes in the cab I definitely think this guy is doing as much as he possibly can, and trust him and his abilities. Besides, his "fit it in" labor rate is about all we can afford to keep sinking into this truck, so we just keep trying to be patient and meanwhile formulate a back up plan (online truck shopping), in case he eventually gives up or summer comes and we are truckless, whichever comes first. But them lending us a car for free while they have the truck has been a VERY nice perk. It's a piece of crap car, but who cares, it's free and it drives. That's made a huge difference for me, to be able to try to live a normal life again for a bit and take a mental break from this nightmare. Now I'm thinking more clearly and make better decisions about it. Although there are still no clear/easy decisions to make..........

Back to the Taco. I would LOVE to hear any ideas/suggestions anyone might have of things to look at on it regarding the hot start issue, or opinions about how we should approach the whole mess. Koditten, I've wondered about the charcoal canister before - and I remember Keakar suggested replacing it a while back just to be sure about it. DP had suggested plugging a hose to it to see if everything functioned right, and we did that plus some tests from FSM on it a few weeks ago (or maybe what DP suggested was the FSM stuff? too much to remember!). Anyway, there was a mild "whining" noise from it on one of the FSM tests when we were blowing compressed air through it, and we didn't know if it was normal or not. The engine guys did say they blew dirt out of a line to it, way back in early January. And we were hearing it click loud and fast off and on for a while back then. But everyone kept telling us it was normal. I know I've read stuff about how overfilling your tank (topping off) can screw up the canister, which can cause a hot start issue. We aren't allowed to pump our own gas in Oregon, so I've never paid attention, until I read that on a forum. Got gas the next day in Taco (this was back in Feb), and paid attention - sure enough, attendant totally topped it up to nearest 50 cents. Bottom line - Koditten, if you're up for shipping your charcoal canister for us to try swapping, I'd be very grateful! I'm shipping the igniter and MAF back soon - figured I'd wait and find out if ECU is coming back or not first.

After reading that TSB about '03-'04 Tacos with hot start issues (Koditten posted it a very long time ago, and I read it more thoroughly just a couple weeks ago), I've wondered whether just adding some more freaking ground wires would be a good idea. My buddy Matt said you can't really have TOO many ground wires, so why not, even if that TSB doesn't apply for us. The engine guys said they don't know what year our block is from. I know our mechanic looked at that TSB, but haven't really talked to him much about it yet. Apparently Toyota issued a 2nd TSB just a few months later for the same trucks (I think), saying a fuel return line was somehow being hindered on models with a certain type of cab or something. I read about that on forums, but never could find the actual TSB. Anyway - last mechanic said he replaced ALL fuel return lines under truck, so that cancels that theory.

Beyond that, it seems it's gotta be some wiring issue that has become trying to find a needle in a haystack.

Ideas? I would gladly take ideas/suggestions to our mechanic if anyone has any, he's been very open and nice in that regard. And ask away, or offer ideas - TW, don't worry about whether you've read it all or not, I'm happy to answer questions about what has/hasn't been done.

PS - I posted this link a few days ago, which talks about heat soak starting problems in general (not geared to any specific type of vehicle) - some of the points in it seemed like they could be relevant to our situation, although a lot of the article was over my head. If anyone feels like glancing over it to see if it generates any thoughts/ideas regarding the Taco, I'd sure appreciate it!

http://www.roddingroundtable.com/tec...s/heatsoak.php

 

so was the truck shopping a serious thing or just something to pass the time unless you found something "too good to pass up" then you might buy it?

ps - im sorry if I scared you talking about swapping engines, I just wanted you to know its was an option should a high mileage beautiful truck come along so you didn't have to think the mileage was a reason not to buy it since you already had a new engine you could put in it. I certainly understand if you wouldn't even want to consider this but I wanted to put the advice out there as just another option to think about.

 

No worries at all Keakar!! I actually considered your idea for a bit! But ultimately I think I don't have the patience for the "what ifs" that would come along with doing that plan. I'm damn near due for a nice long stretch of no more uncertainty and what ifs, but rather lots of easy, carefree, no questions/decisions time! Unfortunately that path always costs the most in these situations. But I'm very close to being ready to be stretched thin in the $ department rather than continue on the journey of uncertainty. And just go for the truck that will make us happy, basically a younger/lower miles replica of this one, if this one doesn't get fixed soon.

We are serious about buying something else if this one isn't fixed by "summer". It's tough, because in Oregon the point in time I consider "summer" starting really depends on rain. We want to pick back up with our fencing project ASAP, and have a billion other projects, that we need a truck to do. And we're already getting some decent spurts of weather that we could be doing that stuff, but we can't haul materials. A few years ago, we started slowly going through our whole yard and disassembling our nasty looking cedar privacy fence/lattice and pressure washing, staining, then reassembling in a more attractive/framed out way, replacing crap materials as needed, and doing new posts. It's a huge job, but very satisfying - looks brand new and super nice, for very little cost. But we gotta haul tons of treated 2 x 4s and 4 x 4s at long ass lengths - A LOT of them, plus concrete for the posts. We might need to replace our deck this summer - that will require hauling lumber. Anyway - when it starts getting nice out more often than not, I will get impatient fast with asking a neighbor to run us to Depot or planning projects around what can fit in a 2 door Civic. So I'm not sure exactly what point in time we will consider our "deadline" to replace the Taco, but it's coming, definitely some time within the next couple of months. That's the shit we love to do, that plus road trips around the state to cool outdoor stuff - and the truck was the key to doing it all. No wonder I was so devastated when I learned what a piston hole meant! Basically everything we do for fun in our free time hinges on that truck. Anyway - we will have a normal functioning truck one way or another in next few months, one way or another.

PS - Keakar, really, no need to apologize about your idea - I appreciate all of you guys taking the time to hang in there with us and offer suggestions. Ideas are definitely welcome - we've never been through anything like this before, so it's nice to have the forum to get opinions - helps you look at it from different angles, ya know?

 

I just had the Tundra out, 34 degrees, secondary roads, in traffic, up and down hills. I was going slower to take the pic; because of poor road conditions; if you are going to bitch about that. But this was the average.

It does this everyday that temp is above 20 degrees.

I have to wonder; but I Don't Care, how you drive.

 

lol, my chevy has one of those fancy "lying to you" gages and it tells me I get 25 mpg but when I fill up at the pump and calculate it myself its only getting 16 mpg.

those computer things just "guestimate" gas mileage based on your speed, throttleposition, and the ECM readings info, they are never accurate for what you really get

I go up a bridge it says im getting 6 mpg and when I go down a bridge it tells me im getting 35 mpg lol, those mpg readings on these trucks are just something to lie to you to make you feel good.

no truck anywhere gets better gas mileage then the sticker on the window says when you buy it, that's why it is illegal for them to use the false numbers on those gages on the window sticker, because they are proven to not be anywhere close to accurate. they are good as an indicator to help you get better driving habits by telling you when gas usage is higher but the numbers mean nothing beyond that.


@ jen another one to think about that has everything you wanted http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/628532257/overview/

 

Oooh, I like it! But high miles though. If we did your engine swap idea it would make more sense, but I'm not up for the risks of doing that. Thinking I gotta hold out for something with low enough miles at the right price, like 100K or less, and the less the better. We bought this one with ~70K, and got 10 great years out of it. Sure, we spent some on repairs here and there, but nothing major. Something like that would be perfect - keep the price down enough, but get at least 10 good years or more with only occasional routine repairs (shocks, water pump, crap like that).

Except this one wouldn't have catastrophic engine failure just shy of 200K, right guys? Actually, I was thinking about that - the odds of that happening twice to the same person seem nearly impossible, so that's another reason I want another 1st gen Taco!!

 

155k is NOT high miles, honestly this is about average and if this isn't something you are ready to jump on then your asking for too much and (if it comes to that) you will be settling for much less later on with this much or even higher mileage. you also have the option of just parking your old truck as a spare and IF the other truck ever had issues, then you have a brand new engine for it ready to go at that time.

I think the odds of finding one under 100k are very very low but 120-150k is going to be the low mileage trucks you'll find today. most trucks on the market are like yours and have 200k or more miles on them. I bet there are literally less then a dozen first gens still out there with under 100k miles on them, they really are rare as free money.

remember the trucks you looked at when you bought yours are continuing to get older and being driven adding up miles all this time just like yours did so if you really want under 100k you may need to look at second gens for that. that 7 year old truck you bought with 70k miles on it is the same yearly mileage a 15 year truck with 150k miles has so thats not really a lot, naturally it would be great to get the fewest you can but in terms of years, a 10k a year average is low and a good find. 2015-2004=11 years so 110k is low miles for those and 2015-2000=15 years so 150k is low miles for those.

150k isn't a lot for these trucks, your engine failure was the exception to the rule and don't expect others to be something to worry about if they are close to 200k, anything over 150k is something I think would be "good insurance" to swap out your new engine with but only because I know there is zero chance of problems in doing it if you or someone who knows what they are doing that does it so I have ne reservations or concerns of any problems in doing it.

bama swaps engines all the time and his work doesn't mess up the customers trucks, you just got screwed by a bad shop.

you were unlucky in two ways, first by a freak engine failure, second by a shop that did a hack job working on your truck and in doing so, they caused (presently unsolvable) electrical issues with your truck.

if you haven't given up on your truck and still want an avenue to try, then ask the guy if it would be helpful to get a complete under hood replacement wiring harness to swap out. I think he would think its a good idea to try one. spending $100 on a used wiring harness at this point is what I would do in your position.

well actually I would have swapped the wiring harness out a month ago when first suggested then if that didn't fix it its trade in time.

I think you should do this now and if swapping the wiring harness and replacing all the ground wires doesn't fix it then trade the old truck in on the silver truck and take whatever you can can get for it and buy the silver truck that's 5 years younger then yours and drive it as-is.

DO NOT try to sell the truck yourself, that's a mistake and you will not get much or anything for it plus, you are just too damn nice so by the time you explain all the problems with it because you don't want to deceive anyone, they wont give you half what you ask for it.

 

I love TacomaWorld. Only here will you hear of a vehicle with 150K on it referred to as low mileage .

I'd trust Bama, who I've never met, over a bunch of my neighbors with an engine swap. Just sayin.

 

well if you think about it, most first gens are 15 years old and 10k miles a year on a truck is low mileage IMHO so 150k on a 15 year old truck is low.

I don't think she is going to ship the truck from oregan to florida so bama can do the swap, but after all she has been through, hell, it might not be a bad investment at all

 

I am still betting that it is something simple but obscure that has been overlooked.

I have a 77 Celica I am slowly restoring that developed a rough idle after running perfectly for a year. I only run it once a month at most, so I figured the gas went bad (drained and refilled, didn't help). Then I figured it developed an intake leak that I wasn't able to locate (replaced intake manifold with a Cannon aftermarket, didn't help but I got a good manifold!). Scratched my head alot. Finally removed the idle adjustment screw and blew some carb cleaner in the hole. BAM. Back to running like a champ.

Started it up this weekend after a long winter break of several months and it fired first crank. I love Toyotas. And I miss the simplicity of the 20R and 22R.

Jen, patience will get it running again.

 

Fronkenshtein want live, Jen. LIVE!

 

No, No,No! no friggin motor swaps!!. All or nothing!.

Kinda like tearing down the new fence when you are swinging for the last few nails. Savvy?

So far it has been a education and I also would love to hear a hot microphone/keyfob camera conversation with a salsemen or parts dude,,but you have to get there absolute stunned face and furrowed brows as they try to keep up with you. Priceless!

Sounds like the new guy has gutted the thing,,and has lots of time invested once again in the wiring,,let him try.

Charcoal canister next is a good call. I would try that because it is involved in tank venting/fume capture and such. Good one. Never overfill on the tank filling,, first click and done. I burned out a canister on a little dodge truck by doing that. Fuel pouring out of the canister because it burped back on a really hot day. It never ran right after that.

 

271, 000 + on mine runs like a top....I still don't see confirmation of ECU swap....had a period where mine was giving me problems, simple to fix in my case....until you can verify ECU swap has been done....also every grounding point needs to be undone, exposed, wire brush cleaned then reattched with a good coating of dielectric grease upon reassembly, this includes block and frame contacts, every dang one..

 

lol well at least your not arguing with yourself then, some people like to believe in fairy tails rather then do simple math to see the truth