WS transmission fluid is garbage . Get it out of your transmission now

Agreed Fifthwind! Just pointing out that supporting data was never provided. Devils advocate if you will, with a bit of Rick Roll Humor?

I know most of the aftermarket products generally outperform manufacture recommended products, and with that I also will be using the Valvoline Maxlife.

 

Just left the dealership, stopped in to ask some questions, one of which concerned this thread.
I mentioned to the service writer about this thread, his reply was: If you swap fluids while under warranty, it will void your power train warranty, at least for the tranny.
He also stated that the Valvoline Maxlife has a higher amount of expansion when heated up!

That said he also related that goes back to '05, and Toyota isn't changing it's reccomendation, ie. WS fluid only!

I believe what gearcruncher is saying, it would be nice to get the feedback he's looking for from corporate!

 

They cannot say that. They can say that any tranny fluid has to be certified to WS standards.

Now, the terminology gets funky here. Maxlife is not offically certified, but the terminology they use alludes that it is, but it is not. Given this, many have used Maxlife successfully and I have not heard of any failures due to anything that might be fluid related.

Just know what you are doing, what you are getting, and what your warranty requires. From the way I understand this currently, Toyota could give you grief on the fluid for warrenty work, assuming they found out.

 

From a business perspective, I have to agree with Toyota, that selling ATF at $11 a quart, and telling people to change it more frequently, will increase the profitability of the company.

I also believe that Valvoline is shouldering some of the responsibility, and from my experience with a few class action lawsuits, Toyota cannot wash their hands that easily. I am confident that the service writer doesn't want to get called out for this (recommending ANYTHING but genuine Toyota), but as the OP stated previously, there are laws protecting the consumer from this type of heavy handed-ness. Fact is the owner's manual tells the consumer to change the fluid at intervals, and Toyota has found that the design intervals are inadequate with the type of fluid specified, and has changed the intervals after the fact.

The expansion ratio is just blowing smoke, as the fluid level is checked at temperature. If the level was checked while cold, it would have a minimal amount of credence. There is airspace in the pan.

 

They said the recomended service interval is 100k mi.
I'll have the Maxlife in there long before then!

 

.
..
...gee whiz who can I trust nowadays ?

some random know-it-all in a back alley California garage,

or Toyota and Toyota Group, who owns AISIN, which develop the worlds best hybrid transmissions,
who develop the auto industrys most popular and reliable auto transmissions,
who develop the best and most used industrial automatic transmissions.


must be a conspiracy that Toyota recommends a specific type of fluid.

or maybe I should trust the people who spent billions designing and making these things,
and not some armchair wannabe ?

god damn this thread is one of the worst

 

lol! It's a truly horrible thing to do, to take legal advice from someone who is not a lawyer, or who does not understand product warranty law. Geeze...

Sorry, but what you were told was fundamentally wrong, and basically a bunch of B.S. The Valvoline Maxx Life is a suitable replacement. It says so right on the back label.

Here is a good place to start reading up on auto maintenance and warranties.

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0138-auto-warranties-routine-maintenance

 

Good post, just need to make sure it's clear that there is a big warranty-level difference between a fluid that is "compatible" and "certified". Maxx Life is not certified, unless they did it recently. And from a warranty perspective, it must be certified. Compatible is a marketing term, certified means that they went through a defined process to ensure it meets the WS spec.

Then there is reality,,, if I were out of warranty and flushing the fluid, I would be using Maxx Life myself. But since I just drain and replace every 25k, I still use the WS, just to ensure there are no fluid mixing issues.

 

true.

you can use any damn fluid you want as long as the container states it is compatible or a replacement for
the stuff Toyota recommends. FTC does not want consumers locked out of maintaining their own vehicles.

certified or not?....I don't know that angle and don't care, I am sticking with WS myself

to a point. there are some things that will absolutely not work together, but the owners manual will typically
state the properties to meet or match and as long as you meet or match the specification, use whatever

 

Are you saying there is a legal difference in fluid that is certified vs. compatible?

 

yes, from a warranty perspective

 

So you're saying if someone uses fluid that is not certified into their vehicles, then they are voiding the warranty? Is that correct?

 

My understanding is this...

Compatible means the company has developed the fluid and decided that it meets whatever spec they are designing towards.

Certified means that the fluid was independently lab tested to meet the fluid's specs.

So, in my opinion, compatible means that the company takes responsibility on it's own if there is a liability action, certified means that the company, lab and spec owner take responsibility.

Are you familiar with Amsoil? Much of their product line is compatible and not certified as they don't want to go to the expense, but it's still a good product.

 

Yes, that is my understanding. I ran into the same situation with a Dodge truck I had 10 years ago. Dodge changed the fluid specs, no one else made a compatible/certified product. Same issues. At that time I went with a compatible product when it came out, no issues at all.

Not saying compatible is necessarily bad, but from a legal perspective you could have a problem if they were to analyze the fluid after you had any failure. Now, would that happen?? Seems low probability, but just wanting people to know what they are doing.

 

BTW, I'm not totally sure if the terms I am using are correct, compatible vs. certified. It would need to be looked up.

 

As far as I know there is no legal distinction for the term "certified", all that usually means is that an independent entity, usually a credible laboratory, has verified claims made by the manufacturer. It then usually entitles the manufacturer, by way of a license to display a logo on the product in the market place. It's a form of marketing and helps the consumer make choices, and lends credibility to the manufacturer. That's it. That's all it does, it has nothing to do with product warranties.

For an example take a look at API's website, see the enforcment section here: http://www.api.org/certification-programs/engine-oil-diesel-exhaust-fluid

​

Now take another look at Valvoline Maxx Life ATF. You will see in the second paragraph that they submitted Max Life for independent lab testing.



Also note that Valvoline correctly informs the reader that using it (as recommended), will NOT void the product warranty. (Third Paragraph)



I hope this helps.

 

We are definitely getting into a lot of legal BS, of which neither one of us should be

To me, the second paragraph is Valvoline's attempt at a get out of jail free card. Paraphrase, "Use us unless you are not comfortable, then use the manufacturer's product." Nothing that specifies they are certified for WS spec.

Careful with this one, what they are actually saying is that if you have a problem while under warranty, they, Vavoline, will "take care" of you. Not that the vehicle manufacturer's warranty will still cover you. Again, sticky grey-area legal-ese.

End of the day, this is just a warning to anyone reading this, just do your research and make sure you are comfortable with your choice(s). Whether I am right or wrong is not even relevant, do your research, decide, move forward.

 

I would never call attempting to understanding the law B.S., and no disrespect, but you should only speak for yourself. I've done some 500+ hours of legal research and reading legal opinions on various topics over the last 7 years. I love the law and learning about it. I am quite comfortable within certain areas. With product warranties, it basically comes down to this: The burden is always on the manufacturer to show that owner modifications, or lack of maintenance for a particular product caused the warrantied product to fail. Toyota for example, can not summarily deny a warranty claim without due process which usually involves investigating a claim made by an owner.

So to put this post on topic, you can use whatever ATF fluid you want, so long as it does not actually cause the failure.

I do agree with you on your point though; caveat emptor. i.e. everyone should do their own research to make sure they are making the right choice.

And according to my research here are some other options and alternatives to Toyota WS not previously discussed.

1. Valvoline Maxx Life ATF (we already knew this).
2. Kendall VersaTrans LV ATF (Made by Phillips 66 Lubricants) (This is what my local Firestone buys buy the 55-gallon drum to service automatic trasmissions)
   
3. Schaeffer Oil - 205A Dexron® VI/Mercon® Automatic Transmission Fluid (Suitable for Aisin Warner JWS 3309, JWS 3324)
4. Pronto Full Synthetic Multi-Vehicle ATF Fluid (Distributed by National Pronto Association | Grapevine, TX 76051 | MADE IN THE USA)
5. Amalie Universal Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid (Amalie Oil Co. Tampa, Fl.)
6. Martin Lubricants - SynGard™ Multi-Vehicle Dexron® VI and Mercon® LV Automatic Transmission Fluid
7. And if your in Australia, Nulon - Full Synthetic Multi Vehicle Automatic Transmission Fluid.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe, by reading the MSDS, that Mobile 1 Full Synthetic ATF fluid is also good to go. It has a higher Viscosity Index value vs. the others listed above, but also a much higher flashpoint 220*C. I sent them an inquiry to see what they say for Toyota WS compatibility / replacement.​

^I WAS WRONG. See below response.

Dear Crom,

Thank you for your inquiry. We do not currently have a product that meets the WS specification at this time.

Sincerely,

Mobil Help Desk

 

I stand corrected, I should not have made assumptions about your ability. Thanks for not going "Internet" on me.

 

PMK has been using Mobil 1 synthetic ATF for 20+ thousand miles with no issues.