4x4 is over rated

TacoinSC · Jun 1, 2008

BLOCKADE said: ↑

Why else would 4x4 owners have wenches. /quote]

Because we like them! I can only fit a couple of wenches in my Taco, unless I use the bed, Then I'm not sure how many will fit.........
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ChrisDeSoup · Jun 1, 2008

TacoinSC said: ↑

BLOCKADE said: ↑

Why else would 4x4 owners have wenches. /quote]

Because we like them! I can only fit a couple of wenches in my Taco, unless I use the bed, Then I'm not sure how many will fit.........
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you can allways put one on your lap if you need more room!
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piercedtiger · Jun 1, 2008

My wife won't let me have a wench... I'll have to settle for a winch when I get a bumper.

TacoinSC · Jun 1, 2008

I had to explain to my wife that a wench or two will help get you out of jam, or in my case, into one!!!!

piercedtiger · Jun 1, 2008

Oh, and one thing that comes to my mind with 4wd vs 2wd isn't the number of wheels pulling. It's the fact that FWD's work so much better in the winter, and the only way to get FWD in a truck is with a 4wd. RWD cars suck in snow, and trucks with an even lighter back end are worse. So if it snows then 2wd is pointless to me. Even with good snow tires and lots of weight in the bed. All it takes is snow, dirt, rocks, etc to build up in front of the the front wheels to act like a wheel chock and stop the truck. At least with 4wd turning the tires they can climb over or dig through that.

piercedtiger · Jun 1, 2008

TacoinSC said: ↑

I had to explain to my wife that a wench or two will help get you out of jam, or in my case, into one!!!!
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Mine would probably let me have a couple if they were butch enough to pull the truck out, or heavy enough to anchor a recovery line..... But only if one/both of those applied.

BLOCKADE · Jun 1, 2008

Whoa, ouch. Dude, seriously, what's with the personal attacks...

piercedtiger · Jun 1, 2008

BLOCKADE said: ↑

Whoa, ouch. Dude, seriously, I'm not knocking your 4x4, and your trails are probably very nice... don't take it so personally...
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ummmmm...... how AM i supposed to take it? You come across like a dick saying people with IFS don't have "real" 4wd's and that we haven't been on a "real" trail if we haven't seen IFS break or other trail damage.

I mean, you just insulted every 4wd owner on this site.

And maybe you're missing my point. Using 4wd allows me to use lower speeds and have more control so things DON'T break. (IFS, or any other part for that matter) Where I go you go slow and steady, or fast and break shit. Slow and steady up a 45 degree rock strewn trail carved out by running water, atv's and dirt bikes isn't an option with a prerunner. Maybe if you could get a prerunner with low range gear box, but you can't without modding it yourself.

BLOCKADE · Jun 1, 2008

The only reason I have "bashed" IFS is because on the two IFS 4x4's I have either owned or gone off-roading with, have snapped the axles like twigs the times I tried to follow the guys with a solid front axle... you just can't do what a SFA can do. Its just a fact. And though "real" is a relative term, I only use it in the comparison of what I've done in a IFS with out breaking axles (slow or not) and what I've done in SFA with little or no problem. Though I will admit I have seen SFA's break, but those guys were crazy.

JimBeam · Jun 1, 2008

to further piercedtigers side of the argument

ive been in several situations with my truck where it was absolutely necessary to have the front wheels pulling. Ive had my truck offcamber in a turn where one of my rear wheels is a foot and a half off the ground...

i dont consider myself a "hardcore" wheeler, but ive got prob $3000 worth of upgrades to my truck and its not a daily driver

im more than willing to put it someplace the "big boys" go

you gonna put the 2wd truck in that kind of position? i wouldnt...especially with the possibility of that rear drivers tire getting bound up against the stump thats next to it...

piercedtiger · Jun 1, 2008

BLOCKADE said: ↑

The only reason I have "bashed" IFS is because on the two IFS 4x4's I have either owned or gone off-roading with, have snapped the axles like twigs the times I tried to follow the guys with a solid front axle... you just can't do what a SFA can do. Its just a fact. And though "real" is a relative term, I only use it in the comparison of what I've done in a IFS with out breaking axles (slow or not) and what I've done in SFA with little or no problem. Though I will admit I have seen SFA's break, but those guys were crazy.
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Well that's your problem! Stop following crazy drivers!

I know what my truck can do and try to stay in those limits. I can do more than a 2wd, but less than a fully locked/armored/winched 4wd. So I drive accordingly. But living with snow and ice I'll never own a RWD-only vehicle. Either 4wd, AWD, or, at the very least, FWD.

JimBeam · Jun 1, 2008

Taken from 4WDTO magazine Nov/Dec 2007 issue

“Independent front suspension (IFS) is sometimes pilloried as ineffective for offroading, yet Toyota, with plenty of very, very smart engineers, has placed this system in all of their US-market trucks. The fact is, IFS is extremely good in almost all areas of off-road action, and although a solid axle does have certain advantages, IFS will do just as well – as long as the driver knows what he/she is doing.

We asked Master Trainer Bill Burke of Bill Burke’s 4-Wheeling America (http://www.bb4wa.com) and Chris Nelson, FJ Cruiser Trail Team leader (and who trained under Bill, by the way) for their sage advice on how to get the most out of your IFS truck. Their answers will enlighten and educate even the most diehard solid axle supporters, and for the vast majority of you who own, modify and wheel your IFS trucks, this will serve to confirm what we already know – IFS kicks butt! Lets start with the basics. Chris will start, and then Mr. Burke will chime in with his excellent advice in regards as to what happens when you lift an IFS truck and other wheeling tips.

CHRIS NELSON, FJ CRUISER TRAIL TEAM LEADER

IFS designs have come a long way in recent years. Many manufacturers have integrated coilover springs in place of torsion bars (the new 2008 Land Cruiser, for example), which tend to hang down in the rocks. Independent suspension does a better job of isolating shock load to a single corner of the vehicle, rather than transferring the impact across to the opposite side. Early independent suspension designs limited wheel travel to a much more linear range of motion. Newer Toyotas have upper and lower A-arms which are much further apart and have differing lengths. This enables the front tires to arc more through their travel, which then allows the treads to keep a larger contact patch on sloping terrain. This can help greatly with traction. Independent suspension also allows a vehicle to have less unsprung weight and therefore better handling characteristics, particularly in emergency avoidance maneuvers.

KEEPING IT SMOOTH

The on-road/high-speed benefits of independent suspension are indisputable, but aside from that, vehicles with independent suspension are more likely to ride smooth on the trail. However, that is ultimately dependant on the driver having some understanding of how to operate the vehicle effectively. The smoothness of a vehicle has a direct correlation to the occupant’s degree of fatigue. If you are getting banged around in a vehicle, you will wear out a lot quicker, in addition to stressing components more.

DIFFERENCES IN DESIGN

The single biggest difference between wheeling vehicles with IFS and those with solid axles is the fact that IFS trucks have a variable ground clearance and solid axles have a fixed ground clearance. The solid axle moves the axle housing and differential as the tires articulate, and therefore transfers shock on one side across the whole vehicle. With solid axles ground clearance is a direct result of tire radius and pressure (you gain traction and lose ground clearance when you air down), and this distance remains roughly the same as tires travel over obstacles. Ground clearance cannot be altered by lifting suspension with solid axles.
Independent suspension has a variable ground clearance because the differential is not integrated into the suspension with most designs. Therefore, as the A-arms and axle shafts move with the terrain the differential will find itself closer or further away from the ground. This offers a couple advantages. For example, not only can ground clearance be increased with tire size but also with lifts that do not relocate the differential to a lower position. In addition, it is easier to make a skid plate that allows an independently suspended vehicle to ramp the differential up over obstacles. The front driveshaft is stressed a lot less, as a result of less deflection, and can be shielded along with steering components much easier. Also, shock is more isolated to the corner it occurs at, rather than being transferred to the opposite side.

DRIVING ON DIRT

The available ground clearance is dependant upon line selection and driver smoothness. A driver should try to pick out high spots on the trail and put the tires directly on them, bearing in mind that sidewalls are more easily punctured than tread. This allows the differential to remain high and out of harm’s way. The driver should avoid excessive bouncing and strive for smoothness.
Typically drivers tend to use their right foot for the throttle and brake, with the left only working the clutch if equipped. This forces drivers to abruptly switch their right foot back and forth between brake and throttle, which makes for a very jerky ride and unnecessarily decreases ground clearance. In an auto tranny truck, I have consistently had much greater smoothness with using my right foot only for the throttle while I drive off highway. By having a dedicated throttle foot, I do not have the abrupt changeover between throttle and brake pedals. Also, it allows me to anchor my right heel to the floor and isolate my ankle muscles for throttle control, which can control the throttle more accurately as opposed to using the whole let.
I do the same with my left foot for the brake pedal, although that takes a little more getting used to. With my right on the throttle and left on the brake I can throttle up to climb and smoothly squeeze the brake for the downside of each obstacle. This way the suspension does not compress as much and therefore allows for more ground clearance. Smooth, gentle use of the brakes can help immensely in overall ride, but requires practice to master.
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JimBeam · Jun 1, 2008

Part 2

SUMMARY

When properly driven and set up, IFS trucks can go along the same trails with a greater level of smoothness than vehicles with solid axles. Chances are, if you go wheeling with a national club you will have the FJ Cruiser Trail Team along with you sooner or later. This is a great opportunity to see just how capable modern IFS is and try these techniques with an experienced driver to coach you along in a brand new FJ Cruiser.

BILL BURKE, BILL BURKE’S 4-WHEELING AMERICA

Independent front suspension and independent 4-wheel suspension driving and handling characteristics differ only slightly from solid axle type suspensions. Indeed the IFS vehicle does have more central ground clearance since the differentials are mounted higher up. This allows the use of CV-type axle shafts and portal axle assembly engineering, which contribute to higher ground clearance. Issues are the A-arm type suspension and wheel locating components, which can sometimes not allow lifting suspensions because of the bracketry required to actually raise the vehicle.
IFS design does allow for “flatter” steering control on pavement and less bump steer feel when off pavement when the suspension really flexes and articulates. By maintaining a flatter body, the steering feels crisper and keeps the vehicle more manageable at higher speeds in turns and under sudden steering. The engineers at Toyota decided to use IFS for the FJ Cruiser (and even earlier on the Tacoma and pickups) for those reasons. Better steering and handling control on pavement and better than average off pavement handling and durability are the result.

THE LIFT GAME

All this is well and good, but when you want to lift the rig and get some 37’s on, the IFS suddenly turns into a nightmare. Getting a good lift with any suspension for IFS is hard to do simply. The only gain with IFS lifts is to install bigger tires. There really is no major gain in suspension performance improvements. The stress on the front drive train components is compounded because of the increased angles on the front CV shafts. CV’s, like U-joints, are designed to perform within parameters based on maximum and optimal angularity. Life expectancy is decreased when those angles are maxed out, particularly the CV nearest the steering wheel, since it also has to cope with turning under steering efforts.
Some bracket kits allow the front diff to be lowered, which corrects part of the front driveshaft angle problem for pinion angle. But the suspension lift may hinder the axle shaft CV alignment to the point of failure. Locking up the front diff, lifting the rig several inches, and putting on some 37’s might cause the axle shaft to pop right in the middle of some gnarly obstacle. Now you gots to winch, bubba!
Make sure the kit you are installing is a properly engineered kit with all the hardware and bracketry designed for clean installation and safe steering. Proper setup of the upper and lower A-arms and allowance for front-end alignment for steering geometry are also important for on and off-highway safety.

IFS WHEELING TECHNIQUES

Driving with IFS requires a keener sense of tire placement, suspension movement, and vehicle equipment placement. Because the vehicle stays flatter, the tire climbing on the rock works well if you understand that the front skid plate might actually stay closer to the ground surface. The tire moves independently of the other front-end parts, and the bumper may stay at the impact level and not raise up until the suspension fully compresses, which will then start to lift the rig. With solid axles, the front bumper will come up when the tire starts to contact the ground; with IFS the front bumper will stay low just a bit longer than we are normally used to. You may have to pick the initial line to accommodate “stepping” up the tires: first one, then the second within 7 or 8 inches of each other. Kind of like how we walk up stairs: by stepping one foot at a time.
Adjust the tire placement and approach to compensate for that characteristic of the IFS vehicle. Make sure the front steering parts, oil pan, transmission cooler and radiator bottom are all protected since sometimes the are right out there in front waiting to get rocked and mudded. Most IFS rigs have rack and pinion steering, which can put added stress on the steering control arms when stretched and flexed. Bump steer is not so pronounced with IFS, but do be aware of it when lifted IFS systems are working their magic. Since driver control for correct tire placement is critical to maintain mechanical sympathy on those vulnerable parts, you will have to be more on your game than the spring-over solid axle crowd.

BUMP STEER

Bump steer: the influence of terrain variety and vagaries causing exaggerated affection to vehicle steering components which require the driver to be more astute with steering control. In other words, you gotta know where the tires are aimed and the steering wheel is turned!
I watch students and friends, experienced and not so experienced, let the terrain dictate where the tires go when on bumpy ground. Up rocks, down moguls, climbing steep steps and dropping off tall ledges. The steering wheel gets tossed all about like a sloop in big swells. Avast, matey! Hold the course and let the tides roll. Land ho, ye scurvy dogs!
When the front tires cycle up and down in big holes, the suspension goes through several dynamic changes. Tire inclination – camber, toe-in and caster – change enough to cause steering wheel feedback to the driver. Axle movement, whether solid or IFS, pushes and pulls on the steering control arms, tie rods, and panhard rods. Axle movement also causes radius arms and upper and lower links to cause movement and flex with the frame and steering components. All this leads us to what we call bump steer.
For example: the right tire drops into a hole. It pulls the steering control arm so the steering wheel turns right almost a full turn. The driver counters this movement with a turn of the steering wheel to the left. The tire comes back up to level terrain, causing the steering wheel to turn back left forcing the driver to turn the steering wheel to the right. All this steering back and forth makes the rig start to look like a sidewinder slithering up a dune. Focus! Hold the wheel at center and resist the urge to turn the wheel when the suspension soaks up the bumps. There is a big difference between absorbing bump steer and steering the rig. Rack and pinion does not give so much feedback as recirculating ball, but there is enough to be of concern when in technical terrain.

KNOW WHERE YOU ARE

Keep focused on where “center steering” is. This is where the steering wheel is centered to keep the tires straight ahead. Understanding bump steer and its effects will minimize the need for over-correcting and under-correcting. We turn the steering wheel too much or not enough when in the bumps. We definitely need to control where the vehicle is aimed by steering, but pay attention to the “attitude” of the steering wheel.
I hold my hands at “9 and 3” for several reasons. One is airbag deployment. My arms don’t block the bag like from the old school “10 and 2” position. Also, for a better feel at where the center steering position is. When I turn the wheel in tight terrain it usually doesn’t require more than a ¾ turn or so. If my hands stay at 9 and 3 and the steering wheel bump steers, I can identify immediately where my steering wheel should be to get back on the straight course (center steering). For sure we need to turn the wheel for, well, turns! But try not to get caught up with the whole steering wheel moving all about issue. I have no problem with steering the rig on the tight stuff but I do try to get a feel for what is happening during the bump steer effort.
I also utilize “shuffle steering.” This means I keep firm grip on the wheel at 9 and 3 and if turning left, for example, I hold the wheel with my right hand and turn it left while letting the left hand slide along the wheel. I then shuffle the wheel back and forth, as needed. I try to not pass my hands over each other and try not to cross my arms up when steering. Shuffle steering works for tighter terrain. For the regular turns I just turn the wheel. I always try to maintain the feel for center steering and pay attention to how the vehicle dynamics are affecting my steering attitude. Everyone has their own style but the “pimp daddy mode” does nothing for me in the rocks.

WHEN TO USE A FRONT LOCKER

Be careful not to bounce the front since the impact will cause both tires to compress and the underside to impact hard enough to do some serious damage. Be mindful of hard turns, being locked up and stretched out stresses the CV shafts and steering control arms. Use the front locker less and mostly when the tires are pointed straight ahead when possible.
I am wheeling a 2007 Sequoia and have had no major issues with the IFS suspension as I take clients on trails from Tellico to Moab, the desert and the mountains. It’s comfortable and safe on pavement, and works well off-road. It’s almost all driver skill, so before you splurge on that SAS kit, spend a little time in your IFS rig and be prepared to be pleasantly surprised at how well it will do. See you on the trail!”
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BLOCKADE · Jun 1, 2008

tigerfan00 said: ↑

to further piercedtigers side of the argument

ive been in several situations with my truck where it was absolutely necessary to have the front wheels pulling. Ive had my truck offcamber in a turn where one of my rear wheels is a foot and a half off the ground...

i dont consider myself a "hardcore" wheeler, but ive got prob $3000 worth of upgrades to my truck and its not a daily driver

im more than willing to put it someplace the "big boys" go...
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But you further my point also...

I'm not saying that a stock two wheel drive can do what a modified 4x4 can do. I think modified 4x4's can do things that 4x2s could dream of doing.
But the only 4x4 I can think of that comes from the factory that you can take straight to a rugged, hardcore trail, is an Hummer H1, and even then you'll probably want a little bit of a lift depending on the trail.

The thread says "4x4's are overrated" and I am saying that statement is true because most people do overrate their 4x4's. They buy them from the factory expecting them to handle the hardcore stuff and handle like a sports car on the ice.

MurphMan · Jun 1, 2008

Of course, a lot of it does play in to where you live. Up here, prerunners are as useful as t!ts on a bull.

007Tacoma said: ↑

Right now, my PreRunner is perfect!

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JimBeam · Jun 1, 2008

ok youve gone too far...you just put an h1 in the mix

jk

ive wheeled with h1s, h2s, and h3s

the trails i wheel on...the h1 is not good...it sinks in mud...it cant fit thru trees or around corners...ive watched several being pulled all day long

h2s need some lift...but once you lift them theyre so freaking top heavy that even a foot tall rock feels all kinds of tippy

i wheel regularly with an h3...along with the fact that the driver is extremely capable...that is a VERY capable rig...sure it needs some work...HD tie rods...skids...etc...but in my eyes the h3 is the most trail ready rig hummer produces now

sure...in the desert and wide open places an h1 would be fantastic...but for all around ability...my vote would be for the h3

BLOCKADE · Jun 1, 2008

tigerfan00 said: ↑

ok youve gone too far...you just put an h1 in the mix

jk

ive wheeled with h1s, h2s, and h3s

the trails i wheel on...the h1 is not good...it sinks in mud...it cant fit thru trees or around corners...ive watched several being pulled all day long...
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That is very true. They are capable rock crawlers though.

As for the H2... I've never seen a bigger joke of an off-road vehicle in my life!

eordonez · Jun 1, 2008

domestic>import said: ↑

ANYONE thinking a 4x2 will out crawl a 4x4 is a total noob

theres no transfer case/low range, u wont even make it up a steep driveway with a 4x2..

no power in front, no limited slip, no locker, no traction..

if you have a 4x2, just throw a lsd/locker in the back and call it a day!! you'll never hang with 4x4's. i think a lot of people with 4x2's know this but are afraid to admit paying $$20,000 for a pre-runner piece fo sh!t!!!!
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Wow, pretty aggressive for your second post man....

tacomaman06 · Jun 1, 2008

eordonez said: ↑

Wow, pretty aggressive for your second post man....
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yeah....no kiddin man!!! tell me again, how is my prerunner a piece of shit???

opinions are like assholes.....everyone has them. im very content with my prerunner.

BLOCKADE · Jun 1, 2008

I think we should only reply to intelligent post... If there was any actual thought behind that one it isn't very apparent.

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TacoinSC I'd rather be in Jamaica...

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ChrisDeSoup Come on, Touch it......

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piercedtiger Devout Atheist

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TacoinSC I'd rather be in Jamaica...

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