3rd Gen Concerns

Rabble rabble rabble rabble.

What's funny is no matter how hard everyone argues here, the new Tacoma is still going to sell well and do it's thing offroad better than any other truck out right now no matter how you define the brakes brakes, engine, transmission, etc.

 

You realize you just showed a video in favor of ABS and computer assisted braking right, which voids about 90% of your brake arguments all over this forum

 

Your response is a distraction from the fact that I asked you to define better WHAT and you still haven't.

A computer simulation is no better than the inputs used to define it. Crap in equals crap out.

You are making shit up again about the article. It did not test the brakes performance. It assumed them from some other source.

Stopping sooner is not solely a factor of brake design. I've already said that. It depends on other factors.

You are still trying to translate tests about semis with front disks and parlay that into passenger vehicles' rear brakes. The point about the semis was to dispute/disprove the virtue of a brake system purely because of market demand results.

You should consider brake lag when comparing CMV brakes and stopping distance as well.

 

I did ...

 

Whole lot of this going on:



BlueT, why even continue? You've made your point, presented data, and now you are getting personal and insulting again. You realize that's how a child argues, right? Not how someone who thinks they "science" argues.

 

No you didn't.
You didn't give a virtue OF A BRAKE that was better.

All you did was give a definition of a brake. I think we all know WHAT a brake is.

Do you know what a Virtue is?

 

I am not arguing with him... science had proven that Discs are better end of the story. They perform "brake" function at better efficiency. Thats why anything from Formula 1 cars to Scania trucks uses them.

There is no argument anymore.

 

So first you argue that Ph.D. is not good enough
than you think test was rigged
than claim "video game" simulation was not good enough
now we talking about virtues as the property of the function.
Let me bring my picture look at the right side of that graph.

 

You know it's getting serious when someone busts out the dictionary and copies a words entire meaning.

Personally I can't believe you guys are arguing over disc vs drum brakes. That debate was settled in the 60's, discs are superior.

 

Now you've done it...

 

then

just sayin

 

I don't think this argument has anything to do with "superior". I think it has to do with adequate. If the rears can already lock up with the drums and do acceptably when towing, why go to discs? Anyways, it's a broken record argument and pretty much irrelevant because, if you want the Tacoma, you aren't getting an option.

 

Yet one more distraction and still waiting for an answer from you on exactly how or which quality of a disk brake is better than a drum brake.

You also continue to misquote my assertions. PH.d is irrelevant. It's a logical fallacy.

If having a PH.d was all you needed to prove yourself right then there would be no need to do research studies and post them for peer review.

All of your arguments of late all refer to ONE piece of your evidence that relates to semitrucks which was only one small point about market demand for this brake or that brake. Helluva rabbit hole you got there. Come back to the surface with me and discuss exactly how, in what way, YOU, BLUE T, think that disk brakes are superior to drum brakes. Don't just say they are. Say HOW they are. Then explain why it's absolutely necessary on the rear axle of a passenger vehicle.

 

Not really defending BlueT because I think he is pretty silly, however a disc brake is superior.

It's better at dissipating heat, has a higher clamping force, has a larger surface area for pad contact, is better at self cleaning, and gives a much better initial bite than a comparable drum.

Anybody here ever had to panic stop a motorcycle from the 70's with drums front and rear, or an old Datsun with drums up front? It's terrifying how long they take to stop compared to an all wheel disc setup.

As someone said above, drums are adequate for the job and keep cost down. That's why they are on a lot of vehicles rear wheels.

 

Without admitting that disk brakes are superior, or that drum brakes are superior....because it depends on the application...

Disks:
better at dissipating heat.. agreed

Higher clamping force? disagreed. Relative to piston size, line pressure, power boosting, caliper housing deflection versus drum deflection... and you also have to consider that drums are usually set up to be self energizing (disks can be as well but I've never heard of a practical application). So it depends on each particular design.

Larger surface area agreed.

Better at self cleaning agreed.

Initial bite agreed.

 

No a caliper has a higher clamp force than a drum. Compare your standard wheel cylinder to your average caliper. The caliper has larger Pistons pushing agains a larger surface area of the pad giving it greater bite.

If drums were superior in anyway, you'd see them on race cars and motorcycles. But they aren't. That's why they stopped using them in the 60's and 70's.

 

To finish your last statement to be more accurate, you should say that "if drums were superior in any way IN RACE CARS OR MOTORCYCLES."

The subtle difference is the fact that it depends on the application.

The fact that a drum wheel cylinder is much smaller is because the drum has addtional clamping force built in because of the energizing effect and also because if you see mostly wheel cylinders today on rear brakes and rears cant have the same clamping force in the rear or else the rears lock up before the fronts. To calculate: take the brake pedal force, divide by the master cylinder surface area, translate to brake line pressure, the brake line pressure in PSI then calculate the force off the piston by dividing by the piston surface area on the brake, then add in (for drum brake) the energizing force of the pad friction camming the shoe further into drum, then divide that total force by the surface area of the pad, then subtract by the deformation of either the drum and shoe posts/wheel cylinder or the deformation of the caliper housing (*which is an indeterminate structure calculation) will give the final figure...it depends on the particular design.

An even better way to look at it is that disk brakes need a power boosting mechanism in full size vehicles in order to generate enough braking force.

 

Just saying, my rear drums work just right!

How about you guys looking towards a TRD Pro package for the late release 2016's

 

I'm hoping it's a real upgrade like the Ford Raptor is compared to the stock F150 rather than the half assed effort Toyota put out with the last Pro.

BTW that's no an insult to Pro owners, but the 2015 TRD Pro was a truck that basically came with a few K in bolt ons and some colour matching for a lot of money. I'd rather see a potentially more expensive truck with significant modifications to the body, frame, suspension (and go with something like Fox rather than Billistein), engine, etc etc in order to produce something that is truly unique compared to other Tacoma's.

 

Again, the only reason they are there is to save money, and they are adequate for the application. But they are inferior to a disc setup and that really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who knows cars.