Is the Tacoma union made?

That is true I didn't think of that situation. What came to mind for me was the couple working at McDonald's who keeps spitting out kids.

 

Absolutely. Right up until the point where the company goes bankrupt the plant closes and the jobs get transferred somewhere else.

NOBODY is guaranteed a secure future.

Look, if any of you guys are union members and it is working out great for you - congratulations and god bless. I just don't think that people should be forced to join, or companies should be forced to become unionized - as they are trying to do right now with the VW plant. We should have freedom of choice for all involved - both on the employee side AND the company ownership side.

 

In some industries unions are good, in some they are pointless. My experience with them is in road construction. About half the big companies here are unionized. They all get paid the well though because the govt sets the wages through Davis bacon. The differences are that in union companies the workers can only do what their job title is, they pay the union, and their retirement fund is measured in hours not dollars.

My problem with unions in general is that they protect terrible workers. Look at teachers, awful teachers never get fired and the students suffer because of it. Not as big a deal in other industries though.

 

The whole union thing is a very complicated issue; if you have an absolute opinion on it, you probably don't understand the full picture (and that's true of just about every issue: if you think it's black and white, you are wrong).

I have an anecdote from the summer I worked at a GM plant: I met a guy on the line that had an M.S. degree and used to work as a teacher. He quit that job to work at GM for 3x the pay; his sole responsibility was to wipe down the body with a rag after it left the paint shop. Irrespective of your opinion on unions, you have to wonder about the future of our country when rag-wiping pays 3x as much as educating our kids.

 

Private company worker unions...not the worse thing in the world.
Public worker (government) unions...the worse idea EVAR!

 

Some union/labor stuff:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/union2.pdf

Basically 11% US workers are union...it's a good chunk but not even close to a majority. Average union cat earns ~$900 vs ~$700 a week for non-union.

I don't believe any company is forced to be union (in most cases management agrees to a contract) and really neither is an employee if they're willing to resign...at least that's what I'm told, as an employee, when I bitch about RANDOM drug screening (I won't start on 4th A). I'm not union & I'm not sorry but, I'm sure not a union hater and wouldn't bitch if I was. I have a skill & certificate as required for my job but, I am 100% certain my overall compensation package is what it is because our companies single largest competitor (as well as other workers holding the same certificate) is highly unionized. Our raises are about in lock step with this competitor (thanks guys...really). And BTW both the company I work for and its single largest competitor earn ~10% net profit on revenues of $50b+ & hoard cash by the multi-billions. They are well regarded by investors and bonds are investment grade. Not even close the bankruptcy.

There are plenty of successful companies that are union (excluding TDIGate but including VW in Germany & other locations) so I don't see the link of or at the very least I believe it's too simplistic to blame unions (in the vast majority of cases) for BKs & leaving the US to manufacture. The US isn't the highest cost labor force in the world BTW either. Keep in mind the US is <6% of the world population & ~25% of the world GDP & wealth.

 

I've worked in both sides and both have their bad apples. Funny because also in both the non-union managers were the slugs playing on Facebook all day while the workers mostly worked. In some industries a union is hugely necessary where all the management wants is to push for speed with no regards to safety. And within a union... The best way is if it runs from the bottom up where the members can hold the fire to the feet of the officials and vote them out. Not many unions like this left.

I will say this... If corporations continue driving wages down there will be an uprising. It's a long time away but it will happen. Wages going down, productivity rising, corporate profits are rising to all time highs. Cost of goods not dropping. It's a matter of time before the middle class rises up again.

 

In publicly traded companies with lots of union workers, have a look at the reports on insider trades and then try and tell my some guy (or even thousands of long-time employees) wanting a raise from $29 to $35 and hour has more of an economic impact on the company than, say 8,500 share Christmas bonus compensation. Or 500,000 unrestricted, low priced shares given as compensation to the board members. Some of these board members do nothing else than prepare the company's Quarterly Report (usually, some small part of that). These board members usually serve for several different companies, and they help chose board compensation at each.

These reports are not anecdotal but are available for the major employers in this country.

Different work than buffing paint, but is it really so much more difficult? Business degrees are a dime a dozen in today's world, and even the lay-man can understand (and usually are doing the leg-work at some office anyway) the economics being summarized for shareholders.

My favorite recent example is United Air Lines. Former CEO Smisek has been literally ruining two great companies solely for "stockholder interests," which resulted in so many millions in executive and board compensation it could pay for a $5 raise for every single United and Continental employee over the same time period. Employees who have worked hard and done great work for decades can't get that $4 an hour raise, but Smisek can get millions in bonuses each year? And his performance was terrible. And now he's under indictment for corrupt (and I might add money-losing) business decision at United. One article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leo-w-gerard/disgraced-united-ceo-jeff_b_8129844.html

Publicly traded companies operate on the premise "shareholder" value. Unions seek value for employees. Shareholder value does not necessarily mean better product, or better company. Usually it means more bang for the buck, better margins, lower costs, higher profits, at the expense of the consumer and (non-executive) employees.

Where I work non-union employees lost their sick bank (down to 80 hours maximum) and overtime pay rates as part of lowering costs. Some of that is literally the company shifting the costs to the government programs (short term injury, medical leave, etc) to lower costs reported to shareholders. My company posts record profits regularly. Is that good business or good for employees in the long run? How about tax payers? Or the product being offered?

Unions exist to protect employees from short-sighted and, in today's world, share price driven decisions.

 

You have my respect.
Like you the downturn kicked us square in the balls.

We're still trying to weather it.

No more retirement, no savings, credit card debt which is new, both homes underwater and my wife's home requiring expensive upgrades. All that with a new baby boy.

...and don't think that two homes means money. It means my wife and I were married a few years ago and we each had our own place. Both are significantly underwater. We tried renting mine, but I was "wise" and purchased a less expensive place in an edgy and up and coming neighborhood. Those don't rent well and I often eat that mortgage.

The only way we've survived is by me working two or sometimes three jobs and my primary job is 140 miles away. I'm lucky I can work when others can't find a job. I'm lucky that I was able to get friends jobs with another company when they were laid off. I'm grateful in a lot of ways as I have a good life and I'm happy to fight for friends and family.

Am I an idiot for having a child, getting married and shouldering all this debt?
Maybe...but if I waited until I was in a perfect place I'd never be married and never have my boy.

I'm 44 and financially worse off by far than I was when 34, but I've got a better life.

What does this have to do with a union?
Two things I guess:
1. While the economy was exploding around us the teachers union still managed to negotiate a raise for the professors. It was a long time coming. There hadn't been any raises for more than four years. The modest raise was the only bright spot in a world of poo and I applaud the union for getting it done in times of strife. It was definitely overdue.
2. Without a union it's all on me, there's no advocate for my work, no one fighting for me to work a 40 hour work week, no expert who knows the industry well enough to fight for an appropriate raise. It's a dog eat dog world and the commitment to your job requires a huge amount of time. Much more than 40 hours. If you don't work for a good company (I do) then it's easy to be taken advantage of. In short, in certain industries, a union can help with your security which in turn can increase productivity. It's no fun constantly being in fear of losing your job (I am).

Sorry for the long post. You guys can ignore me.
I'm just bursting after six years of financial pain that wasn't directly caused by me, but for which I pay for dearly.

Carry on...

 

I tell ya, I don't know what sucks more, watching the 5 digit savings account dwindle, or the credit card bill get bigger.

 

They're calling it a lost decade.
Four more years of this and I'll be 50 with the finances of someone in their 20's. Should be awesome.

Hang in there brother. You really are doing great.

 

What are you basing this upon? The U.S. Census Bureau would disagree with this statement. Between 1967-2007 the number of people making less than $15,000 (inflation adjusted) has stayed about the constant and it's a constant refrain from progressives that the middle class is shrinking. I suppose that this is technically true, but it's because over the decades people have been moving up in income rather than down. Funny enough, the wise writers at the New York Times bewail this even as their own cited data shows that the middle class has generally been shrinking due to rising incomes. I'm sure that progressives would love to make us all equally poor and give us a guaranteed equality of results such as exists in a Workers' Paradise like: Venezuela, Greece, Spain, Detroit, and Zimbabwe. Perhaps if Comrade Sanders is elected as Chairman and completes the conversion of the United States of America into the United Socialist States of America it will be so.

Apparently simple research isn't your friend.

 

Goodbye thread

 

Interesting you point out UAL. Are you aware of the circumstances surrounding Jeffys departure? Crooked...

Also interesting that I'm NOT anti union yet represented UAL (company side) during the grievance process with its IAM member employees.

 

I'm aware of Smisek's mishandling in the name of shareholders, as well as Stephen Wolf's. Both great examples of employees with no long term interest in the companies they were chosen to lead. These modern leaders come for hefty compensation (sometimes with no specific industry experience), perform their shareholder driven mergers and restructurings, cash out, leave the company, and move on to the next. These CEO's tenure's nowadays last, what, 6 or 8 years. 10 if they are lucky. Then they are gone. Some employees stick around at these companies for 40 years, and earn peanuts, or lose everything they have negotiated in good faith with the companies (ESOP and United come to mind...guess we have to add another CEO, Glenn Tilton, to the list of great non-union employees with no accountability and inflated salaries).

Just reading the brief biographies on Wiki of these three will give you a good representative sample of careers and compensation driven decisions that aren't in a companies best interests long-term.

 

The millitary weak? We still have the most advance and powerful millitary in the fucking world, just look at the numbers. The U.S millitary is better trained and has more advanced weapons than any other country. Stop kidding yourself. In the modern world we dont need a millitary to stand up against russia or china. Even using coventional weapons, a war on that scale would destroy the world.

 

While agree quite a bit, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

I agree, blue collar workers in this country deserve better wages and more respect. We under value them as a society. Its ridicoulous. We put to much empahasis on a having a degree in this country. My grandfather didn't go to college and suceeded in buisness.

 

This adds nothing to the discussion and is likely to get the thread locked.
Your charts show what they're supposed to show, but without context of cost of living it's fairly meaningless.

I'd be curious too what the income definitions are and what might happen if the top 1% were removed from the equation.

 

Where do carpenters , plumbers or masons make minimum wage ?