Think I diag. cold start-clatter...

I've been collecting data for months preparing to go to court.

For those unfamiliar, I had head gaskets changed at dealership, they machined the heads WHICH SHOULD NEVER BE DONE ON 1GR-FE and also left metal shavings in the oil pan because they did not remove the engine as they were supposed to in order to change the head gaskets properly!

Some of the first signs the dealership messed up were the 'cold start clatter' , abnormal idle, fluctuating oil pressure.

Before I realized we were going to court and all I was worried about was getting my truck running right I would do video recordings of it running, endoscope of internals, literally changed the oil every Saturday, even if I did not run the truck for a few miles that week trying to get the metal out, etc.

The issue is oil circulation, via debris in the engine, sludge, slow circulation or thick oil.

The quicker the oil gets to the tensioner the better, the less cold startup noise.

A failing tensioner, is a death sentence.

By accident, while logging data for my issues, after hours of reviewing EVERYTHING, even internal endoscope video, I found the sourse of the cold start clatter.

Left bank, cam chain guide. If you have bad cold start clatter, buy a cheap ebay endoscope, inspect the underside of the left bank cam chain for scarring. You will see that the inside of the cam chain looks like it has had sand paper run over it. Then inspect the black plastic guides on the left bank cam chain tensioner, you will the tips have been worn down.

Here is the tech. part.

The cam chain tensioners work by oil pressure, the left bank is last in the system to recieve oil. On a normal 80deg summer day, with a completely clean engine, with completely clear oil passages, the tensioner piston activates in maybe 2-3 seconds so cam chain is not loose enough to start to clatter, you never notice it. BUT, on super cold days, running thicker oil, even a clean engine can take up to 5-20 seconds to get proper oil pressure to the tensioner, clogged passages even worse!

So, everytime you hear the 'cold start clatter' what is happening is the left bank cam tensioner is having a delayed startup response, leaving the chain 'rattling around' for a few seconds, which in turn chips another small piece away from the plastic guides. Which makes the next cold start worse... chain loose for a split second longer.. more chipped away... and so on...



Check your left bank cam chain tensioners!!!!!
13560AD010

Edit

With endoscope, you can check tensioner through oil fill hole, just remove the plastic filler.

 

Reminds me of my 2005 Audi S4; Dealer wanted almost $15,000 just to replace the timing chain guides, I ended up doing it myself and total cost = $3600 just for parts alone. The noise progressively gets worst and worst until pop no more engine.

Sorry your going through this; must be the worst major headache in the world. I feel your pain as I'm going through something similar, it cost money for everything then you go to court only to be postpone for another month, then another and before you know it nearly a year has gone by... I hate the court system. Goodluck to you.

 

Thanks. Bro!

 

So that's what it is? I don't have any idle issues or other problems, just a faint clatter when I first start.

 

Thought that endoscope was used for examining human bodies, and borescope was used for examining inanimate objects.

Thanks for the lesson, that both terms appear to be used for the same function.

 

Two corrections, then carry on.

First. The heads CAN ABSOLUTELY be machined. Dependant upon how much material was removed, will be the deciding factor in how thick a head gasket you need.

www.cometic.com makes them to various thicknesses and bores.

Metal shavings and cleaning are independant and a step of QC.

Secondly, your point of reference leads to some confusion. After reading you last comment, I believe you mean driver-side bank. Correct?

 

Left side is always drivers side. Yes you 100% can compensate for milling with proper gasket. They did not. Also have found errors in honing, head gasket is actually askew in place... data that has been collected... so far, we are 50% done going through it and documenting. This must be a labor of love, because even after I win this case... I will have spent literally thousands of dollars (which I am hedging my bets I will get back) and hundreds if not a thousand hours of my personal time documenting EVERYTHING! Even each time I greased U-Joints over the last few years. I have records of everything. Lucky me, I take pics and vids of EVERYTHING I do to my truck and accountant trained me to keep receipts. I litterally grind my teeth when I think about how stupid I was to let someone else touch my truck Thats the first and last time.

In case the "other party" happens to read this forum, there are some other issues that result from milling that we documented. I'll share the data, video and pics when this is over.

 

The dealership may have beat me down. I finally found Toyota doc stating that heads on 1GR-FE are not supposed to be milled more than 0.1mm. I spent the last $250 of my savings having my attorney send a letter to the dealership's attorney requesting that, as per Toyota official policy, they must provide the details of all work done on vehicle that has been serviced. We requested the the name of the machine shop my heads were sent to and the measurements before and after machining.

They refused! Toyota Corp. has been contacted in regard to violation of Toyota policy by them not providing the required information and also we have filed a formal complaint with the Louisiana Attorney Generals office because they billed me for removing the engine and they did not. I also contacted the Louisiana Secretary of State requesting that the license to do business in the state of Louisiana for Northshore Toyota of Covington Louisiana be revoked.

All in all, as it looks now $15,000 down the drain!

In any case, I'm going look at a wrecked Tacoma this week to possibly buy for the engine. As you can imagine, I'm very skepiticle at this point. Is there any way I can remove the full oil pan and inspect the bearings and lower engine on site without removing the engine?

This whole thing is unreal...

 

To be EXACT it says 0.1mm allowance, over that replace.

 

As long as it is a 2wd, you can remove the pan with some finess.

 

$2.99! I have literally spent enough $$$ that I could have put a good downpayment on a new Tacoma by now. ( rrrrr, I mean newer, you would never catch me in a 3rd gen, lol!)

The sourse of the problem has been found!!!

A $2.99 gasket that Northshore Toyota did not replace as per Factory Service Manual. I'll keep you guys posted!

That gasket, was responcible for low oil pressure, failure of tensioner, starting of sludge build up, every single problem. Slowly the lack of oil pressure caused a domino effect....

Side note, another dealership has been helping me this whole time. The amount of work the techs over there have put into helping me is unbelievable! One in particular has even stayed late before just so I could come see test results in person after I got off of work. Apparently there are a very few select Toyota employees who are truely dedicated to their job!

Torspd, thanks for the info, when I showed up... it was a 4cyl!

 

ALSO, ALMOST FORGOT ABOUT THIS... In my wildest dreams, I could never image such an incompetent and lazy tech could be born!

They did not remove the OEM gasket in place on the timing cover. They just put a second coat and bolted her on up!

 

good luck man keep us posted

 

if you do all your own work... this entire thing could of been avoided by doing the headgakset work yourself..... just saying.

 

What $2.99 gasket? Part number?

 

You are so right man! I got lazy! I trusted the wrong people! lesson learned.

 

Attorney is going to send a a letter with new findings for free. When I get response I'll post. Hope you understand.

 

I Guess its safe to share now, but I have to correct myself. I bought a new part from a dealership to present. After taxes it was actually $3.36, not $2.99.

The oil pump O-ring located on the pickup at the front of the upper oil pan.

BTW, they did take the time to bill the part to me.

 

If they reused the old gasket it should have been fine I would think. Unless the gasket is totally missing, I'd imagine you'll have a hard time actually proving that their failure to replace the gasket has caused your issues. These engines have reports of failing/failed oil pumps, can you prove that it's not just a failing oil pump? Where's @lucky , he knows a thing or two about this. I'm not saying that it isn't possible that they messed your engine up, it's entirely possible and more likely to be so than not... but it's a matter of if you can prove it to a degree to warrant financial compensation. In cases like this sometimes it's best to complain and try to make the party at fault make it right, but if they won't, you might be better off to throw a JY motor in for 3k and let it go. By the time you screw around with the legal process and spend a bunch on an attorney you may have more money in the legal side of this than the actual damage done. Of course, this all depends on your financial situation and what your time is worth to you. It sucks, but that's how it works sometimes.
Let us know how it all turns out.

 

I dont recall having cold start clatter.. my symptoms were similar to a pulley or idler bearing going bad, so Toyota service started there - replacing pulleys and idlers. When that didnt fix the problem, they started tearing down the motor little by little searching for the issue and finally concluded there was insufficient oil getting to left bank (drivers side valve train) resulting in premature wear of timing chain, guides, cam journals, etc as less oil made it there causing more heat and eventual failure. Toyota believed it was bad oil pump. A few things they held against me... I had 80k or so miles on the truck at that time and no extended warranty. I also did nearly all routine services myself - oil and filter changes.. At one point I had to go back and prove that I had been doing oil changes on schedule and with the correct weight of oil - I didnt keep receipts for that or record the oil changes in my service record thingy, but I had been saving every 5qt Mobil1 container for a long time - so I had some degree of proof. Dealership also tried to charge me a $1000 teardown fee and hold my truck hostage til I paid it. I was around $500 in to pulley and idler replacements, which I paid when I left the dealership the first time - then the symptoms returned within a few miles of leaving. When I took the truck back to say its not fixed, they said they would diagnose and find the problem at no cost to me. What they dont tell you, is they are expecting you to have them do some form of billable repair - when you dont, they throw that teardown fee at you. Ultimately, I didnt pay the $1000. I had my truck towed home with the bed full of all the parts they had removed from my engine. They asked me never to return to that dealership for service. No problem, I didnt, nor did I ever return to that dealership to buy more Toyotas. I did the lawyer letter thing, contacted Toyota US Corp offices, BBB, lemon laws... no joy. At that stage in my life, I had purchased 8 new toyotas in the 10 or so years leading up to this event, 4 of which came from that dealership family. I thought maybe that would have some influence - it didnt. I think if you can get it to court, they will eventually settle. But if you get it that far, go for the throat - cost of fixing your truck, lost wages from messing around with all this, all your lawyer fees and maybe even a little damages just for good measure. The reality is, your issue, just like mine, is insignificant to them in the grand scheme of things. The local dealership may want to make it right, but to corp, its probably not on their radar unless there is clear evidence they did something wrong. I still love Toyotas and still own 4 - the 07 Taco that had issues, 08 Taco, original owner of 97 4runner with 333K reliable miles, and a 77 FJ40. Its unlikely I'll ever buy another new one, but I intend to keep the 4 I have forever.

Good luck with your quest.
Lucky