UTAH (and Surrounding Areas) BS Thread

Not that I am aware of. As of this morning, Trump did reduce the size but did not remove the entire monument. so we will have to see what does come of it. I am in favor of perserving the natural features and I certainly would not want cattle grazing through the middle of arches. Just like the area in discussion. Major attractions in the area shouldn't have this and I think the State should have control over this decision rather than the Feds. I feel like this is the underlying issue. People feel like the State should be the regulating authority rather than the Feds.

 

exactly. there is no oil or natural gas in the area. Turning it into a National Monument prevented ANY thing of this nature from happened. If a company wanted to drill or frack for oil, they still have to go through all the same approval channels to do so.

There was a drilling operation a few years back on the hill above my parents cabin in the Uinta's and the only thing we ever noticed was that the dirt road was much better maintained than when the Forest Service was the ones maintaining it. You had to know where to look for the drilling operation was to even notice it. Most people didn't even realize there was drilling going on above the cabins. So I'm not really concerned if drilling did happen... Drilling seems to have a negative connotation these days.

 

That's really good to know! I can say I am more educated on the matter!

 

There is oil and gas fields in BE. Not easy to get to , but they are there. And even if they don't go after the fuels, theres mineral mining... (Im not taking a stance for either, just stating what could happen)

 

Too costly to get to so the gas and oil companies write it off as not profitable. Mining and drilling has to happen to support the needs. This area of Utah is the poorest population in the state. If these industries did want to move into the area, I would be in favor for it to happen to bring income to the families in the area. There are so many rules and regulations in place to preserve as much land as possible with safe guards. The land is here for us to use. It has to happen either way and might as well put money in American pockets than the alternate of having another country import it to the US.

 

That is awesome you ended up making the trek out that way! Its unreal, I have shown it to some of my geology professors and they were baffled. I think the most popular explanation for the formations visible is that the area was liquified during a seismic event and then was later lithified, place is beyond words. Also probably should have mentioned the sand haha, can be pretty excessive.

 

Both are remarkable areas that I have spent time in throughout my entire life. I grew up with my parents taking me there throughout my childhood, and I have spent a plethora of time there recently. I am currently planning a trek along the Hayduke trail next fall which bisects the state of utah and passes through both new monuments, as well as Utah's five national parks and the Grand Canyon. Bears Ears (BENM) and Grand Staircase Escalante (GSENM) are on opposite ends of the state and both are vastly different from one another.

BENM is an area that is considered the ancestral homeland to 7 different native american tribes that currently reside in, and around the monument. The current monument, 1.35 million acres, is the byproduct of a proposal that was put forward by these 7 tribes under the group Dine Bikeayah nearly 7 seven years ago . The tribes specifically asked to have the monument designated to ensure that the vast cultural/archaeological resources found within the area are protected but also to ensure that the area that they consider their ancestral homeland is protected from other threats (natural resource extraction, increasing recreation threats, etc.) The tribes put this proposal together, created the movement that is now embraced by Patagonia and other environmental based groups, and succeeded in getting their proposal ratified when President Obama designated the monument on Dec. 28th, 2016. The original proposal put forward by the tribes called for a monument approximately 1.9 million acres in size and Obama reduced the proposal when he designated to its current size 1.35 million acres to ensure the United States only active Uranium mill (White Mesa Uranium) in the country was not shuddered as a result of the designation.

As I mentioned above I grew up hiking, camping, rafting, and backpacking through this area with my family and I continue to enjoy these wonderful areas to this day. I always thought this place is unreal, the amount of archaeological artifacts found within the monument is utterly staggering. I remember walking through dry canyons as a kid and just stumbling upon ornately decorate pottery shards the size of my palm. Or finding arrowheads tucked away next to granaries or kivas. I have spent a ton of time exploring the backcountry of utah and in no other place (National park, national monument, state park, forest service land, BLM land, etc.) I have never seen anything that remotely compares to the density of artifacts within this area. Oh and the granaries, kivas, cliffdwellings, and hogans found here are unbelievable as well. I cannot state enough how exhilirating it is to stumble upon a ruin that is not labeled on a map and looks as though it probably did 2,000 years ago, you literally feel like Indiana Jones (and I am a 22 year old male obsessed with adrenaline haha). I also had the opportunity to spend two days traveling around the backcountry of BENM with the spiritual leader of the Dine Bikeayah where he explained the cultural ties he has to the land they worked hard to have protected, and he even took me to the Hogan (native american home) where his great great grandmother was born. The connetion he described to me over the course of those two days is irrefutable and deserves to be treated with the utmost respect, not to be diffused in untruthful political rhetoric and bipartisian fewds. Their is truly nothing that compares to this area and I feel it deserves every bit of protection bestowed upon by President Obama and maybe even more.

Folks who disagree with the designation of the monument often state that the monument was designated to lock up valuable natural resources such as oil, gas, uranium, or other minable minerals. This is simly not true, their is no mineable resouce within the monument besides the Yellow Cake uranium and the only operating mine within the country was left out of the designation. No oil, no gas, and no coal.

Access to areas via bike, trail, OHV are revised under the designation of the monument but every trail/road has the opportunity to be commented on by the public. The BLM/USFS will not just willfully close access to areas unless the access posses a serious threat to resources in the area (Riprarian habitat, wildlife, archaeology, etc.). Look at GSENM and you will see they didn't just start closing roads at their will.

Ability to provide a livelihood via cattle grazing, forestry, etc. Again look at GSENM and you will the amount of grazing permits within the monument has not gone down in the 21 year history of the monument.

And my favorite one of all: The federal government is overreaching and taking our land! No private property has ever been absorbed into a national monument. The public lands that were designated within this monument are land that belong to me, you, your grandma, your neighbor, your coworker, etc. They belong to all of us and they will continue to belong to us as long as the monuments remain as they are.

GSENM was designated by Clinton in 1996. It is another entirely remarkable area that is unbelievably beautiful and completely wild. It is a massive area 1.96 million acres that covers the deep canyon country of the Escalante River and the high desert plateaus that encompasses the Kaiparowitts plateau. To me it is an area that is rife with recreational opportunity, (packrafting, hiking, biking, backpacking, canyoneering, etc.) and a surpisingly decent amount of archaeology although nothing close to what is seen in BENM. GSENM was a monument that was designated free of the input of locals by clinton and it was created to lock up the United States largest un-tapped energy reserve, the Kaiparowitts plateau's high grade bitumen coal valued at nearly 1$ trillion dollars, or 6-9$ billion in federal taxes. It also is the world's most productive paleotological resouce with more than 20 new species of dinosaurs being discovered in the past 21 years.

I love spending time in GSENM to be awed by stunning beaty and adventure. I love this area but I understand why so many folks feel that they were wronged by its' designation but if you go to the towns of Escalante and Boulder you will see that they are thriving in the new tourism industry created when the monument was designated. I get why folks feel that we should make some cash of the Kaiparowitts but why in the world do we need any more coal mines, coal is dead and it will only continue to die. There is no such thing as clean coal and the environmental cost of coal, both at time of extraction and post production in use are staggering and undeniable. In my opinion, a coal mine is entirely counter-productive to the benefit of our nation.

Sorry to rant, I love these areas so much and have fostered such a deep connection to both of them that I have a hard time understanding why anyone feels that they are bad. But feel free to argue with me, this is one of my life's passions and I honestly love a good dialogue regarding both sides of the argument.

 

Why?

 

The DNR is only part of the equation when a management plan is created so they aren't the be-all see-all in the equation. So do not just blame it on the DNR. Also I have spent almost one week entirely on dirt roads traversing around GSENM so I do not think they are closing down trails quite like you describe... I can prove it. As for walking/hiking off trail, do not do it in high use areas, that is common desert ettiquite, do you know what cryptobiotic soils are? And camping only in campgrounds? GIVE ME A BREAK, I haven't spent a single dime on camping within any national monument, in utah, once! Their is only one established campground within GSENM and not a single one in BENM? I think you are just spending your time poorly in these areas, you need someone who knows what they are doing and I am more than willing to offer my services if our paths ever cross.

 

Where are these oil and gas fields within BENM? Do you have a source? What minerals are you talking about?

edit: like what minerals are you saying are economically viable within the monument?

 

Yeah, thats the Uintas man. A dense forest that has a vastly different ecosystem than the desert. It can recover at a much faster rate than the desert. Also just because you do not see any damage doesn't mean there isn't damage. Water? Air? changes in wildlife behavior/patterns? I could go on and on about it man. But glad to hear you had an enjoyable experience with a fracking operation, seems to be a rare occurence nowadays! lol

 

I do not directly have sources. Thats why Im asking for all this info and clarification. (The source of my info was from National Geographic, their article stated -in no uncertain terms- that there is oil and there are possibilities of mineral mining, though no specific one was identified.)

Im just trying to wrap my head around what transpired today. Too many on either side just ranting and Im trying to get clear info.

 

Okay, within BENM their is no oil, gas, or coal. The geologic strata do not contain any mineable deposits that can be economically viable, except for some small desposits of Uranium ore (yellow cake). Pages 91-158 in the Geology between the Green and Colorado Rivers, Grand and San Juan Counties Utah by Edwin Thor McKnight explains this.

 

nice rant

 

https://www.nrdc.org/sites/default/...in-bears-ears-national-monument_2017-12-4.pdf

 

As I stated earlier, their are no economically viable deposits that can be mined.... Thats SUWA. I like them, but they are alarmist and bit extremist when it comes to some of their policies/material for example the Red Rock Wilderness act. They use the idea that these areas will be mined as a propoganda technique to rally folks to support the protection of these areas. Again read the texts I cited, that is an environmental group fighting for an environmental cause, I cited a geologist who states the actual deposits within the area. Academic research vs action research

 

A different group with FJs we met up with did it the day earlier, and gave us the warning. Good news is our group was pretty kitted out, so it wasn't an issue. I was kind of nervous since I was running at stock height and tire width as opposed to everyone else that was lifted with meaty tires, but just kept a little heavy on the gas and it really wasn't bad at all.

 

How's employment in Utah? Graduating in May, have some significant experience in the restaurant industry, looking to move to Park City region

 

There's "help wanted" signs on every restaurant and business I see around here. What kind of job are you looking for?

 

I drove through on Friday, Nov 10. There was a minor sandy stretch around Grosvenor Arch. Other than that, conditions were perfect. I believe there's been one big storm down there since I was there. Probably still perfect!

I drove south on Cottonwood Canyon (Kodachrome - hwy 89) and north on Smokey Mountain Rd (hwy 89 - Escalante). I passed 5 or 6 vehicles in Cottonwood and 0 on Smokey Mtn. Desert solitude at its finest!!