Big Ole' Brake Upgrade Thread for Third Gens

Another great addition to the thread, thanks @Nitori

 

ABS is not meant for you to stop faster. It is to prevent the wheels from locking up under hard braking, allowing the driver to maintain control of the vehicle.

In most cases a driver properly trained in cadence and threshold braking can outperform a car with ABS, but people can make mistakes, and the vast majority would rather the car do the thinking. This is especially true in a panic stop.

 

sub

 

Abs does not stop u faster than threshold....

Abs allows u to steer thru a skid as most ppl panic and forget to let off the brake in order to turn.

Abs is very dangerous in some instances.

 

Perfect, Thanks Steve!

 

Quick question, I came across this Wilwood proportioning valve:
http://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders/MasterCylinderProd.aspx?itemno=260-11179
which would accomplish adjusting the line pressure front to back to compensate for different style of brakes. Is there some way to adjust brake bias on the Tacoma without adding an additional valve or is the valve a necessity? I am having a difficult time finding info on that for third gens

 

Unless you are a very skilled driver with a lot of laps on a track in one specific car your probably not going to know that limit of your vehicle so telling someone on a forum to disconnect their abs on a street driven truck is crazy.

 

It's an advanced technique but that doesn't mean it's non-transferable. It means the first time you drive a car you go easy on the brakes and ease into it's limits and don't push it too hard from the first rip. Yeah, tire compound, temperature, vehicle weight, and braking systems all affect the braking threshold but not to the extent you are implying. Also the effects of different terrains and temperatures are fairly predictable on tire grip, it becomes a simple equation of the tires ability to create friction against the surface it is rolling on,and the coefficient of friction of different surfaces does not change. Sand is sand, dirt is dirt, and asphalt is asphalt. Once you learn to brake on each you can predict reasonably well where you will go, unlike when abs sends you into a spin on snow!

 

I'm afraid you're breaking new ground in braking there. I know there have been kits made but they didn't address the line pressure issue and I would wager no one actually tested the 60-0 numbers, they were just in it for the bling factor.

I honestly don't know what the proportioning valve is like in the Tacoma. I know everything goes out the window with the modules for the TRD Off-Road but I'm pretty sure all other Tacomas have a traditional proportioning valve setup. I'm fairly certain that the OE valve is not adjustable in any way so yes, you would have to add the valve. Replace the OEM valve, actually, since two proportioning valves will just fight each other.

There are usually 2 types of proportioning valve: linear and ones with a "knee point" - linear is exactly what it sounds like, for every X psi the front gets, the rear gets X*(75%) psi or whatever bias the manufacturers have decided on. I'm pretty sure that's the way your wilwood one works. Valves with a knee point actually have two different linear rates to the rear based on how much total pressure is applied:


Basically it starts with a given ratio until it hits a pressure at which the ratio drops to a lower rate. My guess would be that this is how the OEM Tacoma one works, but that's just a wild guess and I could be way off the mark.

TL;DR you're almost certain to have to replace the stock valve and you're very likely to be the first person to do so.
I wish I had more solid answers for you but all I can really do is point you in the right direction and give a little guidance.

 

The thing is, like you said, 99% of average drivers don't know what threshold braking is. Most people slam on the brakes. ABS, to most people, is an important safety feature. For people into motorsports who've gone autocrossing, etc, might not need it but I would rather the average joe have ABS than not.

 

Please give us 60-0 stopping distance before and after mods.

 

If you are going to convert the rear brakes to discs then it may be easier to go to a dual reservoir master cylinder. This would eliminate the need for a proportioning valve and allow for an easy way to modulate the front and rear brakes. You may call the Wilwood tech support line and they can walk you through it. 805 388 1188

 

What he said. I didn't even think of that!!

 

He probably won't post them because he's about to spend $3k+ to get a 2-3ft shorter stopping distance

Despite all the bitching and moaning about our rear drum brakes the Tacoma's actually stop pretty quickly for a truck, especially the Offroads and Pros.

60-0 in 125ft. That's already shorter than the competitors Colorado and Frontier, also shorter than other Toyotas like the Camry, RAV4 and even corolla.

Also the suggestion to disable ABS on the Tacoma to increase performance is fucking retarded. I meet people like that all the time at the track its always the guys posting sub-par track times that swear ABS is the devil.

And this is coming from a guy that ripped the ABS out of my BWM R1150R (mostly for the weight savings but also because the ABS pump is like $2k+ when it goes bad) and never ran ABS on any of my track bikes. I get it, on controlled conditions like a track you WILL brake faster using threshold braking. But in the REAL world NOTHING is controlled, road surface irregularities, pot holes, gravel, leaves, uneven surfaces and traction etc etc etc.... You have to be a moron to take ABS out of your truck if only for the liability purposes.

Rear end someone and they complain about a sore neck?? Their lawyer is going to have a field day going after everything you have when they find out you disabled the ABS (rather the accident was your fault or not) and your insurance is going to leave you high and dry because you just gave them the perfect out.

Also, ABS doesn't make the truck stop faster but EBD certainly does! Try emergency braking when two of your wheels are on dirt and the other two are on pavement... then come back and tell me you're better than the computer which can run 1000 calculations per second and individually control single line brake pressure. Also what about when you're carrying a full payload vs empty.... you're telling me you've practiced emergency braking in ALL conditions with ALL different types of payload??? Come on now....

This ain't the track too many variables involved to be better than a computer in all conditions.

 

I'm just waiting for one of these guys to tell me how they can beat the performance of our VSC, which is integral to our ABS. VSC can brake individual wheels at a different rate, depending on traction, wheel speed and angular acceleration. I wanna see their solution to brake individual wheels to keep you out of the ditch on slick roads.

 

I agree. I think the brakes are one of the strongest points of the Tacoma. Suitably beefy 4 piston fixed calipers up front where it matters- I'd rather have that and drum rears than some weak-kneed sliding calipers all around.

I'm kinda curious why the Offroad/Pro vs SR5 comparisons are showing a shorter stopping distance for the Pro. I know they have the fancy electronic master cylinder because of crawl control, but in a dry test condition that shouldn't (at least as far as I know) make that pronounced of a difference. Perhaps the suspension and/or tires have something to do with it.

Which brings me to another good point- if you want nasty 60-0 numbers, you don't want these:


You want a tire that looks like this:


Of course, I'd like to see someone try wheeling (or even a pretty tame dirt road) with the latter.

Tires are the ultimate arbiter of brake performance, because that's actually your interface with the road!

Well that depends on your goal, I guarantee you a skilled driver could put down a better track time with VSC off because VSC is programmed to be very conservative in terms of grip limits.

However if your metric is "average driver trying to avoid clipping that Prius that just panic stopped because of a deer on a slippery road" then yes, VSC will reign supreme.

 

Totally agree. Track performance is not real world performance. If the OP and others would have said "Track only" performance, then no problem. When taking it into the real world, then it becomes a problem.

 

i had that valve installed on a full custom build i did on a 70 A body which also had a full Wilwood Superlite III kit. had serious balls.

but that car had zero tech, no computers. i had that proportioning valve to keep bias a tick on the front, and i had it combined with a Stewart delay valve on the front so if you hit your brakes hard it would ramp up pressure quickly rather than like a switch. that car was regularly over 120mph so that was about the most important safety control feature on the car.

just a story, i know. but I'm looking at bbk's in the future... after my traction bar add, the FI, and the rear posi that isn't actually even manufactured yet. but I'm in, i swear.

 

Me too. In for a rear posi Trac as well. Thinking a posi and a front locker should be able to get me out of anything, and move quickly over most things haha

 

That's my plan. I'll also be posting a step by step of how I get those results, which is essentially why I created this thread to begin with.

Okay how about let's agree to talk tuning without being incredibly condescending. I've met the kinds of idiots at the track you're referencing and I certainly am not in that category. I realize that in a panic stop, while traveling on mixed surfaces you will get slightly better performance by slamming on the brakes and using computer controlled systems to modulate pressure to individual brakes. I'm not saying I'm better than the comp in that ONE very specific instance, however, you can CHOOSE where to point your truck and I've never really seen the need to slam on the brakes and swerve off the road at the same time. One or the other has worked just fine for me through all different types of Motorsports from dirtbikes to go karts to racing on a track, as well as regular old driving on the road. You're entirely correct that liability is an issue with ABS disabled, which is why I planned on wiring in a hidden switch to turn it on or off rather than removing all the stuff. That way I just flip the switch inconspicuously and it's back to normal.
Again, I'm not a moron. I'm not spending 3 grand for nothing. My wheels are going to be heavier than stock and the tires considerably so, so an increase in stopping power will be necessary to maintain decent braking performance. I will post before and after results once I test with the big heavy wheels on but I WILL keep tuning the brake system on my truck until it has optimal performance with the parts I plan on running. I'm no quitter, and I am thoroughly acquainted with the process of tuning something to get it to work right.