Big Ole' Brake Upgrade Thread for Third Gens

I was just ranting a little in general about exactly the type of people you know I'm talking about. Didn't mean for it to be personally insulting sorry about that, you actually know what you're doing and probably even more experienced than I am so I shouldn't be passing any judgment.

Just want those in passing seeing this thread not getting any bad ideas... most people don't have much non-ABS experience, much less track time on karts and dirt bikes... if you didn't grow up with that stuff like yourself its honestly too late to learn but people do anyways.

Off topic but I used to help friends get into dirt bikes and motorcycles as I thought I'd have more friends to ride with! After a few of them really fucked themselves up I decided if you don't already know how to ride (learned at a young age) you really shouldn't even try it

So I guess kinda the same thing with ABS I don't want anyone thinking "I could LEARN to go without ABS and be cool and get more performance and sound like a badass cuz I gutted that electric crap real men don't need that!" When in reality you're more like "with decades of experience I have the knowledge and technical ability to forgo ABS as my custom build will be better suited without it in specific situations of my choosing".

 

You're totally fine man, I can see that now and you're definitely right, I am in no way advocating that everyone should go out and get their truck of electronic systems! This is a read-at-your-own-risk kind of thread so let me go ahead and get that on the record!

 

I raced in the 250 class in the early '80's. I raced mtn bikes in the late 90's and still ride singletrack daily. I think downhill mtn biking is the ultimate teacher of threshold braking.

 

@skyking3 you are killing it on this thread, that is a great idea. I'll be giving Wilwood a call tomorrow about the dual resi M/C. Thanks again for some top notch info

 

Yeah to make this extra clear, I do NOT drive excessively fast on roads nor would I ever advocate anyone do that.
If you've seen the movie "Rush", think of me as something like the American version of Nikki Lauda. I drive normally on the road because why would I ever increase the risk of driving on the road surrounded by so many idiots. I save performance driving for the track or other controlled environments and drive at a comfortable (for me) pace on road to avoid injury to myself and others. I have had close enough brushes with death on road to know better than to make matters worse by being reckless. Again, read at your own risk friends, this thread is a loaded gun in the wrong hands.

 

Hey guys! Finally have some things to report. SO I was breaking in my new rear brake setup the other day and I can't give any affirmative information on them because I don't have data yet to support it but the brakes do 'feel' a bit stronger, and especially the pedal feel is significantly more linear. This is a great plus for me, and was a lot of what I was hoping to get out of this. I believe there was a small fluid leak in my brakes the first few days because last night I went around and checked all the bolts after a few days of driving around and there was a tiny bit of fluid seeping out of one of the new lines and the bolt took a quarter turn if not a little more till it was nice and snugged up. Should be good now and the brake pedal felt stiffer after I tightened that bolt so I think the next time I drive it the brakes might even be a little better.

INSTALL: So the install process is a lot to handle. First you need to completely disassemble the rear brakes. This involves lifting the truck, taking the wheel off, hammering the drum off, and then pulling out all the drum brake crud in there along with the springs and all that mess.

Next, you either need a hydraulic press and new bearings for the rear axle shafts to press the old backing plate off, or you have to do what I did and use a buzzsaw and a cutting wheel to saw the damn thing off. It was a huge PITA but I got it off and didnt damage the axle half-shafts or bearings in the process. Just take your time with it either way.

Next, wipe the half shafts clean and lube them with some gear oil or something to slide them back in.

Now comes the fun part, installing the miniaturized drums in the rear for the parking brake. Its basically like playing operation with big heavy springs, but its easiest to install the rear facing drum and the shoe lever thing and the spring that holds it onto (and both the clips and the pin that surround the spring) the backing plate before you mount the backing plate, and then install in this order:
-parking brake cable to rear shoe
-shoe spacer and shoe spacer spring get mounted in the middle
-forward facing shoe and spring that holds it on along with the clips and pins again
-two return springs for both shoes up top
-single tensioner spring on the bottom
-add star wheel adjuster in between the bottom of the two shoes
-adjust tension either by removing the backing plate to adjust, or if you know which was is righty tighty and which was is lefty loosy then they leave you a tiny window to shove a screwdriver into the star adjuster wheel (I couldn't figure it out because one of my star adjusters was seized in place so I had to remove the backing plate to get it to move but then it did no problem, removing the small backing plate section definitely makes it easier)

Now that that's done, you can install the new disc over top of all that stuff and put in the new caliper. Once everything is snugged up and in place, you can make an estimation of how much bend you need to put on the hardline to get it to mate up to the new brake lines and make the bends in it. Once everything is snugged up and you have checked the mounting plates with a torque wrench (60 ftlbs) and the caliper to the mounting plate as well (30ft-lbs), snugged the lines up hand tight with a 10mm while using an 18 to hold the other line, then you're done with the install! Bleed your brakes and go feel successful driving around in your truck!

 

I'm also going to get some real information on stopping distances once I have the 6 piston front calipers and stoptech aerorotors installed. Those should be the big upgrade to braking power, swapping the rear to disc is just better at preventing brake fade and gives a better pedal feel all the time because I'm not relying on the hydraulic system actuating a mechanical one (that being the fluid pressing on the slave cylinder which then presses the drum brake shoes in response) anymore, the hydraulic fluid presses the calipers directly now and without that additional buffer you get a better feeling overall. More to come over the next week or two when I can get back to the DIYG and install the rest!

 

Its mandated because people panic and do not lift their foot before they try to turn.
Abs extends braking distance

 

Your description leaves a bit to be desired- hydraulic pressure is still actuating a mechanical system in a caliper just like a drum, and that's not really why the brakes feel better.

Drum brakes have a little quirk called being "self-energizing" which is due to the brake cylinder pushing at the top of the shoe, and the shoe gets pulled outwards out into the drum due to the drum rotating.

(Don't know why the diagram won't resize for me, hopefully it's not too huge on anyone else's screen...)

What this means is that your line pressure and your braking force are not necessarily perfectly linked. This can make for a "vague" feeling of the pedal, because your pedal feel is based on hydraulic pressure and not actual braking force. When your foot (pedal pressure) and your butt (braking force) are telling you two different things, it doesn't feel very confident.

With sliding pin calipers ("floaters") like you installed on the rear axle you've improved the pressure/force relation:

The pistons push the inboard pad into the rotor, and the body of the caliper moving "pulls" the outboard pad into the rotor, and since your braking friction is being applied off-axis you aren't going to get a self-energizing effect.

However this is still not optimal in terms of the hunt for the "ultimate braking feels"

Since those sliding pins that allow the caliper to pull on the outboard pad are very dependent on being lubed up and greased all nicely, your outboard pad isn't always going to be pulled into the rotor in a perfect ratio to your inboard pad, especially if your slider pins are a bit gummy. In fact, if your caliper brackets seize you are essentially braking with the inboard pad only.

The real king is fixed calipers:

Two pistons facing each other in a matched pair, each with their own pad. At any given line pressure, you are getting perfectly equal "push" from both pads.

And guess which type of caliper the Tacoma has up front?

 

Oh and just after I wrote this I realized... FYI I'm not trying to poo-poo your choice of sliders in the rear, fixed piston rears are hard as hell to find and it's unlikely to be worth going out of your gourd trying to find a good set and fabbing up the mounting. I just wanted to be as thorough as possible in my breakdown of what makes brakes feel good.

 

You're good! I wanted this thread to be about encouraging new learning so thanks for educating us! For the record, I never claimed my rear setup was optimal, but it's closer to that then stock was as the braking feel is certainly improved. The front brake caliper I am using has a fixed 6 piston setup as well with a slightly upsized stoptech aerorotor with forged aluminum hat and forged aluminum brackets which should be a nice upgrade over stock assuming it clears the back of my wheels

 

4 piston fixed calipers.

 

Yup! Which is why they feel so much better (at least in my opinion) to tons of other cars out there.

 

I've driven many other vehicles also and the brake control that you get with 4 piston front breaks are the perfect non-high performance solution.

I've changed my brakes with my pops since I was young on 3rd gen 4Runners(we owned 3 total) and one 4th gen 4Runner and they are dead simple and easy to maintain.

I've done drum brakes and they aren't as obvious to change out, but not rocket science. It just takes more patience and practice to get the springs in their slots.

 

I'm not trying to start anything, to each their own as always, but why the Tacoma as your platform? It's pretty sub-optimal for what you are attempting to do with it.

 

Maybe because the fact that it has a chassis, RWD, double wishbone front suspension, solid rear axle, a lot of space under the hood..
I think the tacoma's base design is very robust and can be found in most track cars (except for the chassis).

 

that's a hell of a stretch man....leaf springs, solid rear axle (not optimal for track), drum brakes and a truck bed in most track cars? Not to mention it's center of mass is abysmally high and suspension travel is WAY too long. I mean literally nothing on a Tacoma is designed for a track. Not to say you couldn't make it equipped for the track...anything is possible but a Tacoma just seems like an awful place to start if your goal is track performance.

 

Depends on WHAT track your goal is sir. I'm trying to eventually make a run at the Baja in my truck. I figure since I'm not as experienced with off-road racing as I am with other forms of racing starting with a truck that has relatively low HP, reliability, and a strong chassis and build up mainly the suspension and brakes to make it that much more manageable would be my best strategy. I only took my truck to VIR so I could legally go as fast as I want and see the potential in the mods I've made so far to the truck. 40 bucks going to charity seems like a tiny price to pay for the info I got that day on the track. Would love to see the improvement after all the brake mods as I had some noticable brake fade eventually that day

 

Ah I see. Right on then. Tacoma is an excellent platform for "baja style" racing. The trip to VIR made me think you were more going for road circuit track performance.

 

It’s always a pleasure to read the informative discussion in TW. It’s also cool to get information that I have perhaps read before, but have long forgotten!
I just read a few reviews of pickups and their stopping distances.

As tested by Motor Trend, a 2018 Ford F-150 Crewcab 4x4 that weighed over 5200 pounds stopped in 119 feet from 60 mph. That truck weighs 700 pounds more than a Tacoma.

My 2016 Crewcab F150 4x4 Lariat only weighed in the 4700-4,800 pound range. Perhaps it could have achieved better than 119 feet? I don’t know.

If a 4,400 pound Tacoma had the same brakes as the F150, could it stop another 5,10 or 15 feet or more sooner than the already good 125 foot 60 to 0 distance that it accomplishes? I don’t know.

I’m aware of the many variables in braking for cars and light trucks regarding type of pads, fade resistance, type of steel and size of discs, caliper design, tires, weight balance and front vs rear brake force, etc.

I have no track or racing experience. Just loaded down, steep long downhill high heat experience in a lot of different vehicles.

I think that there is always room for improvement in many aspects of a new vehicle and of all the modifications that we the people make in our Tacomas, it seems that trying to have better brakes is a worthy one.

If I were driving my Tacoma with my wife in the right seat, and if I had 2 or 3 children sitting in the back seat and my truck was loaded with several hundred pounds of gear in the bed under a canopy while driving down one of the many steep mountain passes in North America at 65 or 70 mph (which is a lot slower than many crazy people on the same roads are driving) I would want all of the braking ability that I could possibly have.

People get in accidents or are rear-ended every day. Some at low speed. Some at high speed. Either because of inattention, following too closely or maybe they are just not able to stop as necessary. It seems that perhaps sometimes a few feet could make all the difference in averting some pain and suffering.

Are good brakes good enough? Perhaps.
Better brakes are better. Excellent brakes are best, even on a pickup truck.